Card-Control: The Ur-Quan Masters

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Quasispatial
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Re: Card-Control: The Ur-Quan Masters

Post by Quasispatial » Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:44 am

The Troglodyte wrote:
glory_device wrote:if the guardian don't destroy the actual ship it rams, he is actually forced to stay in contact (1 hex away) with the poor thing. If it does manage to destroy it, then it may move freely. Only the destroyed ship will be able to actually target the guardian while being rammed. Other ship will obey to standard firing rules.

How does that sounds?
Personally, I'm not sure if that's much better. Granted, it addresses the return fire issue, but at the same time it might severely hamstring the Guardian in other situations that wouldn't play out that way in real melee.

For example, if I were attempting to ram a Chenjesu, depending on the circumstance, I may prefer to smash into the Broodhome a few times, followed by mounting a hasty retreat (or redirecting my attack on a ship I know can be destroyed with the energy available) while I still have enough energy to do so.
Yeah, I wasn't exactly thinking that the Blazer would have no choice save to continue its ramming. You could ram a few times and then turn to continue moving, certainly. The point, rather, I would assume to be that if the poor thing runs out of movement points and/or energy, it is in a fairly shitty position.

The attack target part is wholly aggreeable in terms of fixing stuff, though. Ships have to be able to defend themselves. If the Guardian is destroyed whilst ramming the first ship, it cannot continue to the next one and wreck that one too. It gives it too much power. Thus, it would be wise to allow any rammed ship to spend movement points for turning, and fire it shots at the current time, provided it uses this to target the Blazer.
"Sentient life. We are the Ur-Quan. Independence is intolerable. Blah, blah, blah." - the Spathi High Council, Star Control II.

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The Troglodyte
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Re: Card-Control: The Ur-Quan Masters

Post by The Troglodyte » Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:40 pm

Quasispatial wrote:Yeah, I wasn't exactly thinking that the Blazer would have no choice save to continue its ramming. You could ram a few times and then turn to continue moving, certainly. The point, rather, I would assume to be that if the poor thing runs out of movement points and/or energy, it is in a fairly shitty position.
Yes, I agree.
Quasispatial wrote:The attack target part is wholly aggreeable in terms of fixing stuff, though. Ships have to be able to defend themselves. If the Guardian is destroyed whilst ramming the first ship, it cannot continue to the next one and wreck that one too. It gives it too much power. Thus, it would be wise to allow any rammed ship to spend movement points for turning, and fire it shots at the current time, provided it uses this to target the Blazer.
This makes sense, but, to be clear, how would things pick up afterwards? Would it proceed to the Firing phase as normal? If so, would the Androsynth still be considered a legitimate target, or is it no longer targetable if it was already fired upon?
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Re: Card-Control: The Ur-Quan Masters

Post by Draxas » Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:20 pm

I haven't really read the actual rules yet for this, but I have kept up with this discussion, and I think I may have a solution. Years ago, I used to play a game called Car Wars, and that handled movement in phases. A turn was broken up into 10 phases, and based on your speed, you would move part of your distance on each phase. For example, a car going 100 mph would move one square (it was a grid based game) each phase, a car going 50 mph would move 1 square every other phase, a car going 120 would move 1 square during 8 phases and 2 squares during the other 2 phases. It kept everyone moving at the same time, and fairly elegantly handled weapons at the same time. On any phase, any player could declare a firing action (if multiple players declared on the same phase, firing was resolved simultaneously), the spot in the turn was paused, and all attacks and their effects were resolved. Once attacks were done, the turn moved to the next phase. It is a little more to keep track of, but an adaptation of this system would definitely help your blazer problem, as well as have limpets move with everyone else, make Arilou teleports a little more sensible, and make counterattacks intuitive as a normal part of a phase rather than their own thing.

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Re: Card-Control: The Ur-Quan Masters

Post by Death 999 » Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:57 pm

Sort of like Robo-rally only with free choice at each step, then.

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Re: Card-Control: The Ur-Quan Masters

Post by Draxas » Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:56 pm

Can't say I've ever played Robo Rally, but free choice at each phase is pretty much the jist of it. The simultaneous movement makes jockeying for good firing position a key part of the game, and when to cut loose vs. hold your fire in order to get better odds to hit can mean the difference between ending the game a winner or a carred wreck at times.

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Re: Card-Control: The Ur-Quan Masters

Post by glory_device » Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:46 pm

One thing to keep in mind is that guardian in blazer form will almost always be the last ship category to move and it signifies something really important:

In games that guardian are absent, you keep a tight formation to remove any chance of having a blind spot. However, put a guardian in the equation and your simply asking for trouble! Guardian are good to force players into breaking formation. Now, since we work on the assumption that everything occurs in real time (I.E. that even if a ship is destroyed it can still affect others by firing on them), the guardian will likely be able to ram everyone to stay consistent...otherwise you need an arbitration system to decide who fired first to negate damage and stuff like that...adding a lot of complexity for one exception.

Now the work around would be:

If during movement phase a guardian ram a ship, he can be target by any ship that were in range of the ramming position during firing declaration even if the guardian pull out afterward.

For example: a guardian is ramming a Broodhome from the northeast hex. two cruisers would be able to fire on him. Guardian decide to move out of range of the cruisers after 1-2 rams. Cruisers can still fire at the guardian during fire declaration.

ex 2: Broodhome got destroyed by the guardian but the guardian was within the firing range of the broodhome. The guardian moved past the old firing range...Broodhome is still able to fire on the guardian during fire declaration phase.

ex 3: guardian hit and destroy a cruiser. two eluder could fire on the guardian at that point. Guardian continue and ram a scout, two x-form are now within range of the guardian...he may therefore be targeted by two cruisers, two x-form and the scout's glory device.

So far, it's the best that I come up with!
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Quasispatial
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Re: Card-Control: The Ur-Quan Masters

Post by Quasispatial » Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:57 pm

Of course, that still leaves the issue of a ship getting destroyed, only for the Guardian to destroy the next one, and then the next, and the next, when in fact the guardian would have died at the first point. I see your reasoning, however. It very much makes for a good formation buster, seeing as the Blazer can run completely rampant in close quarters, so all this may not be only bad.

I concur - any ship should be able to target the Blazer during the firing declaration, both at whatever ramming points are within its field of fire, and at its final position. With the Guardian's slow speed and its lethality at short distance, it will very much be countered by long-range vessels which are easily able to keep a loose formation and blast it apart before it can do significant damage, or even enter effective weapons range at all. We just need to fix up that pesky energy regeneration issue, and I believe that most of the Guardian's problems will resolve through the few, simple rules edits that glory_device mentioned above.

It appears that we have achieved consensus.
"Sentient life. We are the Ur-Quan. Independence is intolerable. Blah, blah, blah." - the Spathi High Council, Star Control II.

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Re: Card-Control: The Ur-Quan Masters

Post by glory_device » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:08 pm

Quasispatial wrote:Of course, that still leaves the issue of a ship getting destroyed, only for the Guardian to destroy the next one, and then the next, and the next, when in fact the guardian would have died at the first point.

The problem with that is that it is almost impossible to determine when the guardian effectively died with the current ruleset. Adding further addition would break the whole spirit of the combat scheme and make it less and less intuitive. But, you are right about boosting the energy regen of long range weaponry. That would certainly help a lot! Some ship will get trounced by design even with a buff (Earthling cruiser will still get completely obliterated.)

Good stuff! I will let you add this to the rulebook (be careful to put it into the working files and not the alpha release tho) since I'm freaking busy at the moment!
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Specifically, they pried me from the doorjamb, and rolled me into the street.'' -Fwiffo

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Re: Card-Control: The Ur-Quan Masters

Post by Quasispatial » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:24 pm

How is this for a rule to cover it?

"When a ship in blazer mode rams a hostile ship, the position that it was at when ramming will count as a valid target for firing declaration against the blazer. Thus, if the blazer-mode ship rams into another ship, and then moves away, during the firing declaration a ship may fire either at the position that it ended up in, or the position where it was when it rammed the other ship. This effectively creates two or more different locations where the blazer can be targeted during the firing declaration, depending on how many different ships it rammed."

On another note, perhaps we should also begin to discuss other concepts whilst we work on getting the energy regen fixed. For instance, warp-in reinforcements. I was thinking that a player may, during the start of the movement phase, move any ship that he or she has available amongst their reinforcement stock onto any hex that is within X hexes' range of a friendly ship, and not within Y hexes' range of a hostile ship. Any ship that warped in would not be able to act (move, fire, et cetera) until the start of the next turn as it takes a few moments to finish warping in. It would, however, be targetable as enemies can safely align their shots to blast it the moment it has fully arrived. Thereby, one would have to balance the benefit of warping in a close-ranged ship at close range versus the added safety of being far away during the warp vulnerability.
"Sentient life. We are the Ur-Quan. Independence is intolerable. Blah, blah, blah." - the Spathi High Council, Star Control II.

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Re: Card-Control: The Ur-Quan Masters

Post by glory_device » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:34 pm

hmm interesting approach! Another approach that just popped into my mind is that ship can place warp beacon at the start of each turn. Warp beacon will allow future reinforcements to be warped in at a later time. The enemy is aware of where ships might pop out! Also, we can be evil and design an upgrade card that allows a ship to warp to ANY warp beacon :twisted:.

Other approach could be that you can warp in ships from a point of control (several would be placed on the map). During the first turn, each player got one near their starting position and the others are neutral... Capturing them increase the amount of RU that you can place on the battlefield? (that's totally ripped off from Star-Wars:empire at war tho).

You can also simply split the map into three section: neutral (no warp) player A warp zone and player b warp zone...If we someday add space stations, it could simply be in the vicinity of the space station.
''I swiftly matured into a fine example of my species and with my parents' assistance, achieved independence.
Specifically, they pried me from the doorjamb, and rolled me into the street.'' -Fwiffo

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