Sequels strife

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Draxas
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Re: Sequels strife

Post by Draxas » Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:00 pm

Stickman_king_28 wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:34 pm
Kinda off topic of steam/gog/etc but EVERYONE wants both s*ardock and F&P to continue making games, right? (Saw that on reddit somewhere. its already been said is my guess)
I absolutely want to see Fred, Paul, and everyone at TFB continue to make games. If Brad and Stardock dropped completely off the face of the planet, however, I don't think I would notice or care if not for this legal battle (which hasn't exactly made my view of them particularly rosy).
krulle wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:31 am
But regarding the final outcome of the case, there's nothing in there to base any predictions for the final decisions on trademark infringement ("true sequel") and copyright infringement in that decision.
True, though the DMCA case does give us at least some idea of where the chips might fall, and who has some additional legal ammunition in their belts. In particular, the judge stating that Stardock has essentially made their own bed, and now can't complain about having to lie in it, is pretty telling (or so I might hope). The thing about trials are, though, that it's impossible to predict how they will end up. There is always the potential for surprises, both big and small, as things proceed and when the decision is made. That's why out-of-court settlement tends to be such a popular alternative to actually seeing a trial through to its end.

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Stickman_king_28
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Re: Sequels strife

Post by Stickman_king_28 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:41 pm

Why is the battle CONTINUING though? Just want to know that. (guess is pettiness and unwillingness to back down and seem strong n crap)
Soo... What were primitive ur-quan like? I just love to speculate about my favorite slave-master caterpillars. That wheezy voice acting tho
I have legal bulls**t phobia

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Re: Sequels strife

Post by krulle » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:04 pm

Because Fred and Paul wish to defend their story and setting, so that they can continue their story, while Stardock has publicly announced that it does want ti take their setting and do whatever they please with it.
And if Stardock succeeds uncontested, I am sure they will contest any new game by Fred and Paul that setting, as with an Origins having that setting, it would've become intrinsically linked with Stardock's trademark.
So, F&P have to nipit early.
And then there's the CEO of Stardock that continues the narrative of being the victim, and that he bought everything and all in the bankruptcy auction, and that F&P have therefore no rights left..

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Re: Sequels strife

Post by Matthias » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:11 am

... despite having acknowledged repeatedly in multiple emails that he didn’t.

Can those emails be submitted as evidence, or will a simple “I didn’t realize at the time that I did in fact buy them” be enough to negate them?

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Re: Sequels strife

Post by krulle » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:50 am

F&P already submitted them into the procedure....

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Niffiwan
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Re: Sequels strife

Post by Niffiwan » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:19 pm

PRH wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:06 pm
And here is Stardock's response:

https://forums.starcontrol.com/492870/a ... k-they-own
Honestly, I think Stardock are in the right here. You can't copyright gameplay mechanics, which is what Fred & Paul seem to be accusing them of. The history of videogames is full of games that have cloned the mechanics of anything successful (anyone remember all the Sonic and Mario Kart clones of the early 1990s?).

Here's an example from outside of videogames: anyone is free to make a copy of the "Risk" boardgame (even using the original geographical layout) without needing permission from Hasbro as long as the name "Risk" is nowhere actually used. That's why conquerclub.com exists, and countless mobile "Risk" clones (though because they can't actually use the name "Risk", it can be hard to find them).

I suspect that Fred & Paul know this, but they needed some ridiculous pretext to halt the sales in order to make it more difficult for their opponents to fund this ridiculous legal conflict.

Because Fred & Paul's counteroffer that they made last year seems eminently reasonable to me:
https://dogarandkazon.squarespace.com/b ... e-and-nope

Why was it rejected, exactly?

This is all new to me -- I haven't logged on here in a few years. Now I log on to find:
a) the extremely disappointing news that the really promising Project 6014 has been abandoned.
b) the disappointing (but expected) finding that there have been no new chapters added to "Peeru's fanfic"
c) the promising news that Fred & Paul are working on their own SC2 sequel.
d) the unsure-what-to-make-of-it news that some other company is making a Star Control game without any of the SC2 IP. Still, that could be promising, too. SC3 did have some interesting races and story elements in it. A "spinoff" story of something in SC3, while keeping the gameplay mechanics we love, could be quite good.
e) the disappointing realization that I probably won't be able to play either of them for years (if ever) because of a stupid legal fight that's eating into both sides' budgets and enthusiasm.

My ideal wish: Stardock agrees to Fred&Paul's counteroffer, allowing both sides to focus on making games, and also Fred&Paul legally allow Project 6014 to be commercially-released as a "alternate-universe UQM sequel", perhaps with Fred & Paul getting a share of the profits (thus hopefully providing enough incentive for its creators to get back to working on it and actually finishing it). Much as I'm hopeful about Fred&Paul's project, sometimes the fans making fan games do a better job than the original creators (see: Sonic Mania. Wherein Sega made the wise decision to allow someone from the fan-modding scene to make an official game, and the result was the best Sonic game in decades).
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krulle
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Re: Sequels strife

Post by krulle » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:40 pm

Niffiwan wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:19 pm
PRH wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:06 pm
And here is Stardock's response:

https://forums.starcontrol.com/492870/a ... k-they-own
Honestly, I think Stardock are in the right here. You can't copyright gameplay mechanics, which is what Fred & Paul seem to be accusing them of. The history of videogames is full of games that have cloned the mechanics of anything successful (anyone remember all the Sonic and Mario Kart clones of the early 1990s?).
Common misconception, you can copyright a gameplay mechanic.
But that's not actually defended here. The example F&P published a comparison between theSC2 and Origins HyperSpace compared to the lack of HyperSpace in SC3.
Those elements are protectable.
Also, a gameplay itself can be protectable by copyright, see Pacman and it's lawcase.
It's just first instaces that often "let it go", from what I saw....
And many scenes-a-faire (setting) are not protectable either.
And then there's the public statement of Stardock that they want to have origins feel like SC2, a gameplay experience as close to the "original" as possible....

But the court and judges will decide on that...


Note: risk lost its cases, because the world and nations /territories being at war with each other is simply known from our Human history and as such a secene-a-faire.
The example Stardock beats dead (Street fighter II) lost, because the characters are caricatures of certain stereotypes, and the moves are known martial arts moves, and the button sequence generally follows the movement....
Last edited by krulle on Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Niffiwan
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Re: Sequels strife

Post by Niffiwan » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:04 pm

krulle wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:40 pm
Common misconception, you can copyright a gameplay mechanic.
Is this article wrong about it that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_clone
In present-day law, it is nonetheless held that game mechanics of a video game are part of its software, and are generally ineligible for copyright.
Although it does mention that precedent may have changed after a 2012 case which the company owning Tetris won. I guess maybe I'm 7 years out of date. Gameplay didn't used to be copyrightable. If it now is, I think that's very unfortunate. Imagine if the owners of Pong had sued all of the Pong clones... ::)-smf

Maybe SC2 would never have gotten made at all.

Looking more carefully at the legal cases cited, it seems like the only ones in which a video game clone loses are ones in which it is extremely similar to the game it cloned, with few or no gameplay differences.
Last edited by Niffiwan on Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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krulle
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Re: Sequels strife

Post by krulle » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:10 pm

There were many Pong suits, and they lost, because tennis is a known game, and Pong is a direct transfer of that into 2D computer screens.... The setting itself was not copyrightable, because known.

HyperSpace in this form is not known.
When science finds oit that it does indeed look like that, then any copyright for it will be undefendable, but Ithink it unlikely Stardock will be able to proof this defense, and if they can, they'll make more momey than with games after that....

edit! also welcome back!

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Niffiwan
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Re: Sequels strife

Post by Niffiwan » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:25 pm

krulle wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:10 pm
There were many Pong suits, and they lost, because tennis is a known game, and Pong is a direct transfer of that into 2D computer screens...
Come on now. ;) Pong is nothing at all like tennis. Ok, it's maybe 1% like tennis. In tennis, you can move around the court, not just stand at the back. The ball coming at you doesn't bounce off the side of the tennis court. There is a net in the middle. There can be up to 4 players. You use a racquet which can put all kinds of spin on the ball. The ball can go at different heights and speeds.

Even if that was the inspiration, transferring it to a 2D screen makes Pong so different from the original that it might as well be its own original creation.

Incidentally, under the old Soviet Union laws, a work was only eligible for copyright protection in its original medium. So, a book would be protected from unauthorized re-publication, but it would not be protected from being adapted into a film or a song, as it was held that the change in format made it into a different entity. It led to some very interesting and original film adaptations. In the 1990s, that all changed and it became like the West, and some projects (like a Hobbit animated film) had to be abandoned.
edit! also welcome back!
Thanks. :)
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