Origin of the universe?

[Eth]

  Logically, for anything to exist, something must always have existed.  If time has no beginning, then something or things have existed for an infinite amount of time in the past.  If time "started" a finite period ago, there must have been a "first cause" which started it up. 

[Exit Mundi]

hmm,i see youre point,but what if this plane of existence only came into 15 billion yrs ago,created by a race on another plane.This could also explain aliens.

[Eth]

hmm,i see youre point,but what if this plane of existence only came into 15 billion yrs ago,created by a race on another plane.This could also explain aliens.

  Then you're back to the "chicken and the egg" paradox. 

[fluffy_banana]

Exit Mundi: No matter how many levels of planes of existence you have, the one at the top has to have been created by something. Which requires energy. And energy doesn't sprout out of nowhere, without other energy. As Eth said, a paradox.

[Exit Mundi]

or would it need energy to create planes of existence? If no energy is needed,then the energy would only be needed to create things inside that plane,which could be transferred from plane to plane.


oh,and by the way,its been proven the chicken came first.

[fluffy_banana]

To create anything at all, energy is required. Think of a power plant powering a city. The city is powered by the energy conveyed from the power plant. However, the power plant still needs fuel, and that fuel needs to be made, probably at a factory or by people (or both). The people and the factory require energy to be created, and so on. For anything to exist, it has to contain energy from another source, and as I said energy doesn't spring up out nowhere.

The problem is, there can't be an original source of energy, because it would require energy to exist, as well. And so on.

It also can't be a cycle such as I suggested earlier. Imagine the circle. It has energy flowing through it, because of the cycle of universes going on inside it (the cycle requires one universe's leftover energy to power the second, and the second the third, and so on until it comes back to the first). Now 'step back' and 'look at' the circle from a distance. Energy is flowing through it, but where did that energy come from? Say a plane of existence. That would still require energy, as I said above. The problem of the original source of energy arises again. The circle become a 'knot' in a line.

[GeomanNL]

Perhaps Eth is right when he says:

Logically, for anything to exist, something must always have existed.

In that case, the fact that we are here (even if it's temporary), probably means that other universes should also exist, and probably an infinite number of them.

I still wonder if everything together doesn't add up to nothing. But, maybe that's a stupid question ... because if it's infinite and it's all around us, who cares whether it really exists?

[Exit Mundi]

it can be a cycle.Say if everything is the way it is now,with everything existing, when all the matter is compacted into a black hole,the energy is still there in the matter because E=mc2. When the black hole detonates,the energy is released back.the background radiation would fly off to another universe far far off,and be sucked into another black hole,and agian, boom,and still all the matter is still there,along with all the energy.

[They]

oh,and by the way,its been proven the chicken came first.

By whom?

[Eth]

It also can't be a cycle such as I suggested earlier. Imagine the circle. It has energy flowing through it, because of the cycle of universes going on inside it (the cycle requires one universe's leftover energy to power the second, and the second the third, and so on until it comes back to the first). Now 'step back' and 'look at' the circle from a distance. Energy is flowing through it, but where did that energy come from?

  This last question is, IMO, the fundamental flaw in your argument.  The energy doesn't "come from" anywhere.  The system (universe, multiverse, what have you) is closed, and while its nature has changed over the eons, it has always existed in one form or another.  It isn't difficult to imagine a universe without end; why is it hard to imagine one without a beginning? 

  We tend to categorize things and deliniate them in our minds.  "This is such and such species."  "The postmodernist movement started with Kierkegaard."  Generally, we attach a beginning and an end to things, to keep 'em neat and tidy.  I think that this is a tendancy of Western thinkers, and may cause us to run into trouble on occasion. 

[Sedodes]

Ahem... I'd like to point out that since time is actually dimension, there are likely *ways in which time moves* in *other places* that we don't (or can't) understand.  One of *those places*, or multiple *those places* could, theoretically, create each-other -- with our very own *place* being, well, the "dregs" of such creation(s).

As humans, our understanding of complexities such as time and space are comparable to a dog's understanding of a vehicle.  It has no clue HOW it works, just that it DOES and the external effects associated with those workings (such as movement).  Does a dog understand the profound operational differences between an electric car or a gasoline powered one?  No.  The car goes or it doesn't go.  That's all that matters to the dog.

In fact, in this comparison the dog has one up on US -- we can't imagine time "not going."

I mean, seriously, who the hell would WANT linear time?  Could our *place* be the equivalent of a failed experiment or, to better illustrate my point, "inbreeding?"

Feel supremely insignificant yet?

[GeomanNL]

Feel supremely insignificant yet

no, just insignificant will do fine in my case

closed, and while its nature has changed over the eons

If a system is closed, shouldn't it be a static system, which doesn't change ?

It isn't difficult to imagine a universe without end

No ? I think it ends, at the point that energy is spread out so thinly, over such enormous distances, that there's actually nothing left. That takes quite a while, so I don't worry about it, by that time we may've the tech to migrate to another dimension, or create a universe of our own

why is it hard to imagine one without a beginning

Because we're part of an evolving universe. Evolution usually starts somewhere, and ends somewhere else. In something that's stable and always exists, there wouldn't be any evolution, because it wouldn't require evolution.

Well, this is all IMO of course, as usual.

[GeomanNL]

Mind if I revive it? I heard a Spathi whisper from the safety of the shadows:

"Oh NO! It can't be eternal and oscillating! Then all our enemies will come back. We must flee to another universe!"

And there was a Thraddash saying:

"It doesn't matter that our culture goes downhill. In the big-crunch, when time and space are reversed, we'll see who's laughing!"

Edit:
lemme throw in some Matrix wisdom: "Everything that has a beginning, has an end." I like that line.

Orz: "There exist many *times* and *places*, but this one is too much *fun*."

Arilou: "You smell. Wash yourself, you scare of people in another dimension."

Druuge: "Is there a god? Where? We would like to open a trade route to heaven."
"I don't think he'll like you guys."
"He will, after he sees our discount prices."

Utwig: "If the universe ends, and all life will disappear, then what is the use waiting for that? Let's all commit... no wait, the Ultron speaks. It says, the end only marks the beginning of something new. I'm curious what it is; okay, let's stay to find out."

[Morpheus]

... Wow... this is GREAT! I bet I can solve all of your questions in one link... ready...

But before I give you this link you must promise me and yourself that you will not stop reading or watching halfway and that you will finish everything on this site.

1...
2...
3...

Kent Hovind

Now click on downloads and Age of the Earth 1/2 and Age of the Earth 2/2. After that go through everything else.

[Druuge Killer]

This is a very interesting discusion. I think one of the major problems with the idea of trying to understand where the universe originated from comes from the lack of time that we spend in it. In fact, I am not sure that even an infinite amount of time in this universe would allow for any more understanding. The only way that it can be explained is through super-natural means. In the end, whether you believe in God or you believe what science has shown to be true, you are still are still having using the medium of faith (or trust) to substantiate the position. For myself, I would much rather put my faith in something that also provides my life meaning (this of course being God) rather than men.