Origin of the universe?

[GeomanNL]

Did anyone ever think about the origin of the universe? I have thought about it, and it's a very confusing question. Where does the enormous amount of matter come from in our universe?

Some believe "it" started with a "big bang", but imo that explanation doesn't go far enough; because, because where does the big-bang come from? Others may believe in accelerated universes, or a steady state universe, or whatever. In each case, imo, there's an external mechanism which remains unexplained.

It's probably impossible for us to explain where "we" come from, similar to that our own shadows cannot possibly know (if they were intelligent) from what complex creatures and enormous light source they come.

What we do know is, that probably, all the matter that was ever created, will ultimate evaporate and disappear as radiation into the far reaches of the universe - in principle, it'll become "nothing".

Imo, having a "start" somewhere with some energy or mass (or whatever) is flawed, because what powers the "start" ? You can come up with explanation of the start of the start, and then of the start of the start of the start, but what you ultimately require will be an infinite number, a neverending amount, of starts - and that requires something infinitely big.

Therefore, I don't believe there's such a thing as a "start".

When I think that our destiny is that all turns to nothingness, then our origin may well me nothingness.

But, the problem with nothingness is, that we don't really exist.

One explanation could be that everything we do, summed up by everything done in other universes or dimensions, sums up to zero. Then we're a sub-system of something larger, and that larger thing, doesn't exist. In that case, the whole thing doesn't exist, but we do exist.

But if you think of this, if the total doesn't exist, why do we exist? Existence takes energy. Why would positive and negative energy be separated, exactly so that it sums up to zero?

You guessed: by an external force.

So in conclusion, I don't have a clue why wer're here, why the universe exists, but it's nice to think about it now and then.

[fluffy_banana]

It could be that time is an infinite cycle. One universe begins and is destroyed, and another from it's remains, until the 'first' universe is made. This requires that time is a circle rather than the conventional line. The reason it appears to be a line is because we obviously have only seen our universe's chunk of the circle.

This might seem depressing, that time and everything is preset. But no one person could live long enough to see the whole circle, so it might as well be that time's a line, though a curved one.

This also does not actually conflict with my other post; I decide what I do, but I always decide the same thing.

[Chrispy]

Well, the theory of the big bang was made because the universe is spreading apart, so it therefor was once smaller.

I don't think I can explain it. I dont know if I believe in an all powerfull diety, but it sometimes feels like something supernatural had to make the human mind.

I just see it as, if there is some diety, we will probably find out when we die. If their isnt, we will just die. I'm not desperate enough for knowledge to kill myself. I choose to wait.

[Sedodes]

Interesting fact:  "The Big Bang" wasn't some hyper-atomic explosion that flung matter outwards.  It was (and still is, as it's still happening) merely an "explosion of space."  In other words, space itself is expanding, and, aside from *relatively* small local velocities, all matter in the universe is "stationary" although it's moving away from other matter because of spatial expansion.  Of course, there are exceptions -- some local velocities involving two "objects" on a collision course close distance faster than the rate of the spatial expansion.

Scientific American did an article on this a couple months back.  Interesting fact is that matter can be moving, relatively, faster than the speed of light due to spatial expansion.  If it weren't for the respect that I have for SciAm, I'd gladly reproduce the article.  I encourage those of you interested to subscribe or scrounge the internet.

As far as the greater topic of "origin of the universe," assuming that there's no interference from a divine creator and that time is linear, the origin could be merely the imagination of someone/thing in another part of the multiverse.  Or, one can argue that the universe CAN'T have a beginning because all "things" are contained within.

I personally like the idea that the universe itself is an entity in a way we cannot fathom with a form of consciousness we can't imagine.  As such, I subscribe to the idea that it was "born" of a greater universe which, through the understanding of time that humans lack, will in some direct or indirect way be born of this universe.

[Moonshadow Rogue]

ASB: That last statement conforms with both Greek and Early-Egyptian mithologies: The Earth and the Sky are different deities that were born out of something bigger, something older, something which is the universe and is at the same time outside the universe...

Geoman: Got crosseyed by trying to understand what you said in a pure logical sense...


As for meself: I do believe in an all-powerful deity (Call it God, the Universe or simply IT) which one day got a bit bored having nothing to see in all the nothingness around and created a universe cuz stuff like Sentience, Galactic Events and Discworld books could really be interesting... of course, some people would ask: Why would a perfect god create a universe with so much Evil in it... They miss an even greater conundrum: Why would a perfect god create a universe at all?

[fluffy_banana]

I think an even better question is: why is it a perfect god in the first place? What I don't get about gods, deities, or otherwise all-powerful beings, is that they seemingly must be 'good' or is looking out for humanity. It need not be 'evil', either; just with something with more self-centered motives.

[Moonshadow Rogue]

How's about an all-powerful being who has been bored? I mean... Well surely anything is better than being in nothingness all eternity... so hell... why not create a universe? Watching Supernovas, A-bombs and people who believe that the universe all comes down to this or the other mathematic equtaion can be very interesting...

[GeomanNL]

If god created the universe, who created god ?

Geoman: Got crosseyed by trying to understand what you said in a pure logical sense...

ok... I'll try to explain again.

I think that explaining the presence of a single electron addresses the same issue as explaining the whole of the universe. It boils down to the question: why is there any "presence" at all. Or, why is there energy (same question).

You can't explain a presence by invoking another presence like a god, cause that is a presence itself, which needs explaining in turn, to infinity.

Then someone can say, what if the presence is eternal, it has no beginning and no ending? That takes away the problem of having a beginning - it takes away the question of what started the big bang. However, it still doesn't explain why there's a presence. Something with no beginning/ending is a cycle, or a wave, and in this very cycle, energy is contained.

So. Then you can think, if you can't explain it, maybe it doesn't exist, maybe there's nothing. After all, observations indicate that matter is in slow decay and everything will ultimately be gone (after a looooong time, but time is not the issue here, only the presence). Therefore, if the end state is nothing, then perhaps the initial state, or origin of the universe, is also nothing.

However, we're here, therefore from our perspective, there's a presence. If there is nothing as a whole, there should be an anti-presence at the same time and location (but which we can't see). In that case, on the whole, there would be nothing. You could have a multitude of universes, each of which exists, but when summed up, contribute to nothing on the grand scale.

However. If a universe and an anti-universe exist, how can they have become separated? That requires a presence, an external force, or at least the "presence" of some kind of organization (and that's also a presence, in it's most basic form), at least, I think it requires it. (in other words: organized nothingness is not true nothingness).

On a sidenote, I also considered that maybe we're originating from a chaotic medium, an anonymous mass of immense alien energies, which is completely random and without structure (any structure requires energy to create it)  which now and then spawns a viable seed of a new universe.

However, where would such a chaotic mass come from ; it always boils down to the question, why is there a presence (to explain our presence).

I don't think there's an answer.


About the big-bang: imo it's such a strange concept, I hope it's not the correct explanation about life, the universe, and the rest.

About a god: I hope there's no god who created us, I prefer to judge the world based on what I can see.

[Eth]

  Many religions have god's who aren't "perfect."  The Greeks are a classic example.  Greek mythology is as rife with human weaknessess as a soap opera. 

  One interesting thing about the big bang theory is that when everything is compressed at the "beginning," time itself doesn't exist!  I'm afraid that I can't explain it very well, but I read a book called Elegant Universe by Brian Greene which explained such concepts as the big bang, quantum physics, and superstring theory in words of two or fewer syllables, which I could understand.  Anyway, for time to not exist, and then for something to happen, well, that's pretty damn weird. 

[fluffy_banana]

If god created the universe, who created god ?

Geoman: Got crosseyed by trying to understand what you said in a pure logical sense...

ok... I'll try to explain again.

I think that explaining the presence of a single electron addresses the same issue as explaining the whole of the universe. It boils down to the question: why is there any "presence" at all. Or, why is there energy (same question).

You can't explain a presence by invoking another presence like a god, cause that is a presence itself, which needs explaining in turn, to infinity.

Then someone can say, what if the presence is eternal, it has no beginning and no ending? That takes away the problem of having a beginning - it takes away the question of what started the big bang. However, it still doesn't explain why there's a presence. Something with no beginning/ending is a cycle, or a wave, and in this very cycle, energy is contained.

I suppose you're right. If you have a cycle, something has to start the cycle, thus getting back to the origional point.

[Exit Mundi]

Me,my whole explanation is fairly simple.
The very beginning: God created matter and watched everything start up.

Universal cycles: Kinda like fluffy said,but my thinking would be that black holes would eventually gain enough matter,and that matter so tightly packed has got to create massive amounts of friction and heat,and since heat expands matter,enough matter would eventually cause a huge explosion,and thus,new universe,but also,these could be happening countless times each second in the infinite expanses of space,so the universe isnt so universal.Just my idea,no facts,nothing like that,but thats just my explanation.

Im pretty open minded,very open minded (but not in micheal jacksons open minded thinking).

[fluffy_banana]

But, where did God come from? See, it's the same problem again.

[Exit Mundi]

*blink* ah.A new problem arises....
But if God is all powerful,he wouldve always been there,probably on an ethereal plane that we know nothing about.

[fluffy_banana]

But then where'd this ethereal plane come from? To have something exist, it requires energy, which also requires other energy to exist.

[NECRO-99]

[rant]
In the basis of all branches of Christian faith, God has always existed, because He does not follow any scientific or physical rules set by mortal men.

I must say, I find it quite irritating when man tries to fit any sort of divinity (God, Allah, Shiva, Zeus, Odin, whomever) into rules and regulations created by mankind. It doesn't work for mortals to try to classify immortals by mortal standards, such as physics or chemistry. Trying to understand where or *when* God came from is folly. It can't be done because we have very, very limited perceptions on how divinity works.

This is the problem most people have with being religious; they can't make the jump of faith required to believe that something just exists, no prerequisites required. Everyone needs solid proof of everything these days; the "Doubting Thomas" syndrome afflicts most everyone. What's anything without solid evidence, right? Right?
[/rant]

Not meaning to crank up the flamethrowers on any Athesists or Agnostics, but it's how I see it. Might explain why my locus is nearly all external, too.