Author Topic: 2D vs 3D  (Read 3215 times)

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Offline Marr

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Re: 2D vs 3D
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2005, 12:38:00 pm »
There seems to be a feeling here that 'interface' is a secondary part of a game's design, something you can bolt over the top of a finished engine to suit the player's tastes in the same way that you can offer redefinable keyboard controls.  I don't believe that's true, I think interface is the most fundamental part of a game's design, the most important to get right as early as possible, and that it dictates the possibilities and limitations of everything that can then be built into the game's world.  I believe Star Control was a hugely successful design because it started from the simple, clean and proven game mechanics of Space War and Asteroids, and built up from there.

Sedodes, you make a key point when you mention predicting a flightpath.  This would be the most difficult thing to get right in a 3D space.  In Star Control I and II, the player can predict flightpaths at a glance, taking in range, angle and speed of approach, and develop a gut feeling for when to fire.  The problem here with 3D is that our computer screens are 2D, and don't give the player a feel for such things, thus distances in numbers and predicted flight paths overlaid on the HUD by ships' computers.  For me, this loses a lot of that visceral, seat-of-your-pants dogfight feel.

MrMarch, are you sure about the Homeworld thing?  Homeworld had a fantastic interface..  For a 3D strategy game.  It let you swing the camera around like a blue-arsed fly, zoom instantly in and out from long range scanner to pilot's eye view ranges, set up cinematic angles from which to passively watch battles unfold, and pause at any time to analyze the situation, consider tactics, and change orders.  I doubt much of that is compatible with fast-paced arcade combat.

Halo vehicles, though..  Hmm.  That recalls the interface from Outcast.  Allow me to describe.  Outcast was a third-person FPS sort of game involving combat against groups of fairly intelligent and well armed lizard guys, with a tendency to work together in packs, make good use of terrain, and spread out to surround the player.  Kind of a prehistoric version of Halo in that sense.

Anyway, the controls: It was primarily mouse controlled, moving the mouse swung the camera around behind the player, turning his torso (And gun) to face the same direction where possible, while the movement keys caused him to run forward, back, sideways or diagonally relative to the camera.  This allowed you to, say, glance to your right while running, by swinging the camera left while switching from 'up' to 'left' on the movement keys.  It may sound a little clumsy, but was actually very natural, and allowed for a lot of fast-paced running around and dodging during firefights without disrupting your aim or running you into walls.  Also, the constant parallax movement made up well for the lack of stereo depth perception.

So how about this, third person perspective with the player's ship centered at the bottom of the screen, moving the mouse swings the camera around as in Homeworld and Outcast, while the direction keys turn the ship to that heading relative to the camera, and thrust.  You'd need a 'face camera without thrust' key as well, possibly the right mouse button, or 'centre' movement key.  A 'track enemy' toggle could then be added without affecting the other controls, although I doubt it would be necessary.  Still going to need a HUD to aim the weapons, though..
« Last Edit: July 05, 2005, 12:42:22 pm by Marr »

Offline MrMarch

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Re: 2D vs 3D
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2005, 06:28:04 pm »
There seems to be a feeling here that 'interface' is a secondary part of a game's design, something you can bolt over the top of a finished engine to suit the player's tastes in the same way that you can offer redefinable keyboard controls.  I don't believe that's true, I think interface is the most fundamental part of a game's design, the most important to get right as early as possible, and that it dictates the possibilities and limitations of everything that can then be built into the game's world.  I believe Star Control was a hugely successful design because it started from the simple, clean and proven game mechanics of Space War and Asteroids, and built up from there.

MrMarch, are you sure about the Homeworld thing?  Homeworld had a fantastic interface..  For a 3D strategy game.  It let you swing the camera around like a blue-arsed fly, zoom instantly in and out from long range scanner to pilot's eye view ranges, set up cinematic angles from which to passively watch battles unfold, and pause at any time to analyze the situation, consider tactics, and change orders.  I doubt much of that is compatible with fast-paced arcade combat.

Halo vehicles, though..  Hmm.  That recalls the interface from Outcast.  Allow me to describe.  Outcast was a third-person FPS sort of game involving combat against groups of fairly intelligent and well armed lizard guys, with a tendency to work together in packs, make good use of terrain, and spread out to surround the player.  Kind of a prehistoric version of Halo in that sense.

Oh, I agree 100%.  As I said in my first post, the interface would either make or break a new Star Control game.  That was SC3's failing: a weak interface.  I do believe that a simplified version of the Homeworld engine designed for a single, arcade style of play would work well.  Obviously, a portion of the control the player enjoys in Homeworld would need to be curtailed for an action game, but the premise is sound.  Simply maintain the 3-Zoom capability of the original Star ontrol games and apply it to the Homeworld engine, thus eliminating progressive zoom and simplifiy the controls for the player.  Further, the new Star Control game using this engine could move from keyboard control to keyboard/mouse hybrid, allowing the practical aiming and manuvering required in a true 3D engine.  A challenge it would be, but I believe it can be accomplished with the current abilities of 3D engines with ease.  Hell, the original Star Control I and II used an already ancient (in computer time) engine for the 2D arcade action gameplay.
Always on the lookout for a future ex-MrsMarch

Offline the_game_barracks

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Re: 2D vs 3D
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2005, 08:42:02 am »
we at the game barracks specalize in 3d games (partley becouse weve never tried to make 2d). i already have plans for a 3d version of sc1.

the battling view is easy, top down. just make the ships roll a bit while they turn. (continuum style) i also plan to make a interchangable cockpit view altho you only move left and right.

i dont think that the fact that its 3d will hinder gameplay at all, just improve the game experiance.

here's a 3d view of the yehat terminator

To Star control Or to not to Star Control... is that the question?

Offline Sedodes

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Re: 2D vs 3D
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2005, 08:49:06 am »
Oh my goodness... is it just me or does that Terminator look like a curled double-ended dildo?  Something tells me that design is a touch off.

The 3D world, 2D movement is used in Super Smash Brothers to great effect.  In fact, I know I suggested it on this board at one point.
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Offline the_game_barracks

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Re: 2D vs 3D
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2005, 10:01:37 am »
how would you imporve it? its modeld after the sc2 termanator pic on the pages of now and forever
and whats a dildo?
To Star control Or to not to Star Control... is that the question?

Offline Lukipela

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Re: 2D vs 3D
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2005, 11:06:48 am »
Either you game designers are being farmed somewhere nowadays, or you boys are really young. I suspect he means it looks a tad too round and tubish...
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Offline the_game_barracks

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Re: 2D vs 3D
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2005, 12:27:23 pm »
ok hows this. it looks round and tubish as well but thats my style... plus it make more sense.




if the pic dosent work click here http://www.geocities.com/miked54321/sc3d_pics

the sylandro storm

primary fire. chemical blasters
secondary fire: cloud creater (like smoke screen)

desc: creates a enviroment on board the ship that lets the sylandro function normally.

note THIS IS A BETA!!! feel free to critizize, thats what i put it up for
To Star control Or to not to Star Control... is that the question?