Author Topic: WAR  (Read 4781 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ErekLich

  • Ur-Quan Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 521
  • Karma: 2
  • One Ring to rule them all, eh you know the rest.
    • View Profile
WAR
« on: February 26, 2003, 12:22:24 pm »
I was playing Star Control just now, and I remembered the story behind it.  When the Chenjesu showed up the people of Earth unanimously (or very nearly so) supported the war against the Ur-Quan.

It struck me that, sadly, there is no way that would happen in real life.  There would be a huge outcry, vocal protests form people who refused to see the danger no matter how much evidence they were shown.

Why is it, I wonder, that the same person can accept that a fictional alien is evil "just because" and yet cannot see the obvious truth that some humans are just as evil, even when shown that a man doesn't even treat his subjects like human beings in many cases?

I wonder, if the Chenjesu showed up tomorrow, what would the war protestors say to them?  "No, we cannot do the right thing, because it means going to war?"  Or would they support war as long as we're killing aliens and not humans?

Why are people so blind?  I cannot fathom the mind of someone who truly, naively, and without reservation believes that all people are good at heart.  Let me tell you, it just isn't true.  So to all of you who don't see the danger, to those people out there who protest war with Iraq, I say to you two things:

1) remember your history.  Appeasment doesn't work with dictators.  If you give a mouse a cookie he'll want a glass of milk.

2) remember too the lesson of the Ur-Quan.  What matters is not wether Evil triumphs in the end.  What matters is that you stood up to Evil, said "I will not bow" and fought for your freedom and life.

I'll get off my soapbox now.
Oh God, please don't let me die today... tomorrow would be SO much better...

Offline Scott_Irving

  • ZFP Peace Corps
  • Ur-Quan Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 1298
  • Karma: 7
  • XR Webmaster / PNF Deputy
    • View Profile
    • XR: The Movie Project
Re: WAR
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2003, 01:57:17 pm »
I don't support any war on Iraq, though you did bring up some good points that make me think somewhat otherwise. I totally agree with the statement about people being evil, not everyone is good. There are lots who are mind you. Such *Evil* people would include crazy inconsiderate drivers on the roads around here, I sometimes swear Im the only one who follows the laws of the road; makes me *frumple* but that's another story.

Anyway So far though I haven't seen enough to warrant a war. Sadam and his pals have been around for a while, why all of a sudden (this has been going on for a wee while now yes but not that long) should we all jump on the band wagon and go to war against them?? There's other dicatators in the world who are and could be just as dangerous as Sadam. If nothing else I think more time should be given to the U.N weapons inspectors.

Offline ErekLich

  • Ur-Quan Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 521
  • Karma: 2
  • One Ring to rule them all, eh you know the rest.
    • View Profile
Re: WAR
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2003, 02:00:02 pm »
Sorry, let me clarify a bit then.

My rant isn't intended to be a direct support for war on Iraq, although I do lean a bit in favor of it.

My rant is mainly directed at the people who can't see that some humans are evil.

As for the "all-of-a-sudden" removing Hussein from power has needed to happen for a long time (although by what method is debatable) and only now does someone have the guts to try and do it.
Oh God, please don't let me die today... tomorrow would be SO much better...

Offline Scott_Irving

  • ZFP Peace Corps
  • Ur-Quan Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 1298
  • Karma: 7
  • XR Webmaster / PNF Deputy
    • View Profile
    • XR: The Movie Project
Re: WAR
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2003, 02:06:42 pm »
Yeh he should have, like back in the gulfwar or was it desert storm? i forget.. doh ???

Offline ErekLich

  • Ur-Quan Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 521
  • Karma: 2
  • One Ring to rule them all, eh you know the rest.
    • View Profile
Re: WAR
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2003, 02:29:08 pm »
Same war, I believe...
Oh God, please don't let me die today... tomorrow would be SO much better...

Offline Tim

  • Hunam
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Karma: 1
  • Kohr-Ah
    • View Profile
Re: WAR
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2003, 06:49:15 pm »
uh, who are these people who think that humans can't be evil?  I am not aware of them, do they think hitler was not evil?  War with Iraq is a complete seperate issue, I personally have no sympathy for Saddam, which protestors do not either, for some reason some people like to say that if you are against the war you must be for Saddam, which is lunacy.  

I do however have sympathy for innocent people, whether they are Iraqi or American does not make a difference to me, the government must be questioned and it must be made certain that war is necessary.  

So far this war has the greatest amount of pre-war protests of any war ever, doesn't that say something?  

on another note:
I read recently that the Earth could only sustain 2 billion people if everyone lived like Americans, we use so much resources it is ridiculous.  The greed in this country is astounding.

Tim
This is my trophy bone pit..

Offline Scott_Irving

  • ZFP Peace Corps
  • Ur-Quan Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 1298
  • Karma: 7
  • XR Webmaster / PNF Deputy
    • View Profile
    • XR: The Movie Project
Re: WAR
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2003, 08:56:06 pm »
Glad I live in Canada  ;)

Offline Lukipela

  • ZFP Peace Corps
  • Ur-Quan Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 4326
  • Karma: 29
  • The Ancient One
    • View Profile
Re: WAR
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2003, 12:46:40 am »
Well, seeing a sEreklich has posted this in several places, I thought I might as well put my answe rup here as well, to see what comments it spawns....

WARNING: Very long post ahead, do not read unless you are prepared to put down some time

Well, I'll take the easy bit first, the SC2 comparison. I do think people would join up behind an alliance if they were told that the alternative was enslavement. Most nations wouldn't want to give up theri independence ture, but they'd all be forced to back the UN on this issue, lest they get overthrown by scared and angry mobs in their own countries. And once a foundation like StarControl is founded, and given the right to appropriate resources "for the good of humanity", it would be very hard for any nation to withdraw their support for the project. Perhaps some would stay outside for a while, but not for long I think. at the very latest, after the first few battles involving "earthlings", everyone would join the ranks. Even though SC2 says the humans are united, it doesn't specify which way. I thibk it's very possible that the nations remain in cooperation with the UN, and that the only thing we are unanimous about is really the fact that we wsih to have the opportunity to expand into space, whcih we can't if we are enslaved. Also, xenophobic as most of us are, a threat from outer space would have a better uniting effect than any human adversary could produce.

Now then, to your real question. I assume you wanted mine and GM's opinions because we are european? Or is it just because you consider us intelligent?  Before I go any further, I would like to state that this is the way I feel and think, how I percieve reality, and that I can't speak for anyone else. Europe is a large place, with many different opinions, ranging all over the scale, just like america. We're not any more united here than you are over there (in fact, porbably much less).

Now then.....

I don't believe that everyone is good at heart. II don't trhink very many really do that. And I don't support the Iraq goverment in any way, it is a corrupt and tyrannical regime, and one the world could do without. I am however, not what you would call pro-war. I realise that as a last resort, a war may unfortunately become a necessity, but I do not believe that we are close to that point as of now. War is hell, someone once said. Now, why do I believe this? Let me elaborate:

1. The threat argument. There are no evidence to show that Saddam is a threat. Sure, he has weapons, just like  lot of other nations, and some of them are potentially dangerous. However, we cannot invade a sovereign state because we suspect something. If we do that, where do we draw the line? Can we invade Pakistan beacuase they have nuclear weapons? Can we invade Britain, because they are as of now a threat to EU unity? Of course not. Saddam is clearly unreliable, and weapons inspections need to continue to make sure he is kept in check, but unless he commits an agressive move, the rules don't allow us to interfere. This rules may seem silly, but hey are the ones civilized countries have agreed upon, and if we break these rules, we are no better than the enemy. We will have become what we opposed.

2. The morality argument. This one actually carries some weight that most bleeding hearts don't really think about. invading Iraq will mean a lot of casualties, including civilians, the number depending on the way the war turns. However, people are suffering every day in Iraq as it is now. Can we really claim to be moral if we have the ability to stop this suffering, and choose not to act? Great power brings great responsibilities. However, if we oust this one dictator by force to free his people, we need to take a good long look at ourselves. Because if we do this, we cannot stop there. The North Korean are starving, and they are researching nuclear weapons. Musharraf has nuclear weapons, and he is not in the least bit democratic. Mugabe starves the opposition in his country, and has created a famine in a country that was once one of Africas most fertile. The list of dictators who treat their people wrong, and who are either sponsored by the west, or ignored by them is quite long. We cannot simply oust one. By doing this, we commit ourselves to decades of war before we are done. And that battle we may not win.

Round and round it goes, where it stops nobody knows

Offline Lukipela

  • ZFP Peace Corps
  • Ur-Quan Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 4326
  • Karma: 29
  • The Ancient One
    • View Profile
Re: WAR
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2003, 12:46:56 am »
3. The area argument. The area in which Iraq resides is, to put it mildly, unstable. It is filled with religious organizations of one kind or another who all dislike what they percieve as US agression against them. If Iraq is invaded, noone can predict what will happen to the rest of the region. At the very least, it is safe to say that the amount of hatred would increase. the moderate forces in Iran would probably be pushed back 20 years. Saudi-Arabia's rulers would lose more ground to the religios leaders. Hamas camps would fill up. Syria would probably go insane. Andin the middle of this, the Israelis would sooner or later find themselves with a new war on their hands, fueling the cycle of death and destruction over there even more.

4. The mistrust argument. A lot of countries who would normally stand a lot closer to the US in this issue have come to mistrust their ally after the new administration came along over there. the Kyoto agreememnt, the International Criminal Court, the agreement against missile"shields", all of these are issues, where most people over here feel that the US has let them down. There is an impression of that when the US wants the international community, it should stand ready to help, but that when the opposite happens, we'll americans are the only ones that count. Because of this, a lot of people don't really take what the US says at face value any more. They look for hidden agendas, like the Oil thing, or the Bush's dad thing or anything else that to them seems slightly suspicious, and they wonder, are we being told everything?

On a side issue of this, this is why we cannot invade without UN backing. UN could give this operation a legitimate reason, an OK from the world, that would calm a lot of hot feelings. attacking in without it will only further enhance the feeling that the US does whatever it damn well pleases whenever it damn well pleases.

Alright, this is pretty much it for now. there's more to come I think, but I want to hear any reactions to this, while I think of the phrasing for the rest. Hope it goes a way to explaining for you ErekLich. I at least understand your "SCUM!" comment now....
Round and round it goes, where it stops nobody knows

Offline ErekLich

  • Ur-Quan Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 521
  • Karma: 2
  • One Ring to rule them all, eh you know the rest.
    • View Profile
Re: WAR
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2003, 01:50:25 am »
Viropher:

Just so we're clear, who is you're calling a stupid hypocrite?  (If it's me, I'd expect better from a moderator, but who knows...)

Tim:

You're lucky then, I've met several people who can't seem to recognize evil.  I've even heard of (although not met personally) people who deny that the holocaust even happened.  Also, as I said in my clarification I am not pro-war, I am just ranting about naive people.

Scott:

Yeah, well at least the US didn't get sold on E-bay!  ;D

Lukipela:

It occurrs to me that I may as well link to the thread in the other place...  I put it in two places to get maximum comment, and because I figured this thread would be safe from the trolls who skulk around the UQM forums.

Here's the link:

http://uqm.stack.nl/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Gendiscuss;action=display;num=1046312575
Oh God, please don't let me die today... tomorrow would be SO much better...

Offline Lukipela

  • ZFP Peace Corps
  • Ur-Quan Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 4326
  • Karma: 29
  • The Ancient One
    • View Profile
Re: WAR
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2003, 02:16:54 am »
The Trolls? Who are the Trolls? i've never met them, anything like the Ents?
Round and round it goes, where it stops nobody knows

Offline ErekLich

  • Ur-Quan Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 521
  • Karma: 2
  • One Ring to rule them all, eh you know the rest.
    • View Profile
Re: WAR
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2003, 03:29:20 am »
Hee... yes and no

In Tolkien Mythology, Trolls actually are evil corruptions of Ents.  In more generic fantasy terms a troll is big, strong, and extremely unfriendly.  They also tend to regenerate, but not when hurt by fire or acid.

In message board terms, however, a troll is someone who acts like a jerk, tries to piss people off, etc.
Oh God, please don't let me die today... tomorrow would be SO much better...

Offline Lukipela

  • ZFP Peace Corps
  • Ur-Quan Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 4326
  • Karma: 29
  • The Ancient One
    • View Profile
Re: WAR
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2003, 03:41:57 am »
I know, I just meant that I haven't encountered anyone like that on the UQM board excpet for NEMT, and he seems to be there very rarely nowadays.

And those are just the regular trolls. there's mountain? trolls as well, who can stand sunlight and are much more dangerous. One of them falls over a main character near the end.
Round and round it goes, where it stops nobody knows

Offline Scott_Irving

  • ZFP Peace Corps
  • Ur-Quan Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 1298
  • Karma: 7
  • XR Webmaster / PNF Deputy
    • View Profile
    • XR: The Movie Project
Re: WAR
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2003, 08:15:34 am »
Ebay .. yeh true but it wasn't real so..

Wow that was a long post... all very good points  ;D

Hmm I notice the hypocrit message was removed...

Offline Lukipela

  • ZFP Peace Corps
  • Ur-Quan Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 4326
  • Karma: 29
  • The Ancient One
    • View Profile
Re: WAR
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2003, 08:27:00 am »
Well, I did warn people in the beginning. And thankfully it seems to have gone home well with people so far, seeing as I've only had positive replys so far (Well, only two replys as well, but still). It is a very sensitive topic, and I expect that the thread, if not my post will continue to spark replys for a while still. of course, it may well become redundant soon, as it war looms ever closer.

If there ever is a real country up for sale, I think I'll try and buy it. Get at least one sane place in the world...
Round and round it goes, where it stops nobody knows