Moderation, why so harsh?

[Angelfish]

It's not like there's hundreds of posts on this forum every day, so I don't see why the moderation over here has to be so harsh . Needless to say, I've lowered Lukipela's karma by his request.
Also, kind requests to keep things ontopic are way better than 'or else' posturing. I don't know where Lukipela got the idea that waving around a big stick is going to convince anyone. Moderation requires a bit of social skills, knowing when to use subtlety, easing your mindset into people's thoughts, participating as a discussion leader in discussions, and ultimately using the big stick when things go wrong.
Using the big stick too early will alienate people from the community, causing them to see it as a place for serious discussion instead of a fun place to hang out with your star control friends.
Hopefully, things will improve .

[Draxas]

You can only warn someone so many times before the big stick has to come out, or your status as a moderator can't and won't be taken seriously. I have no doubt that Luki has given plenty of warnings about that sort of conduct to the offender in question; we've seen several in public in various topics, he's been banned for a day for disruptive behavior, and I'm sure tht more has been communicated bia PMs that we cannot see.

I absolutely support Luki's decision, and have negated your karma decrease.

[Angelfish]

There was no 'offender in question'. We were all offenders. As such, from multiple people posts have been erased.

[Shiver]

Moderation requires [...] easing your mindset into people's thoughts [...]

Try and put yourself in Nuclear's mindset. "I'm going to shit all over this forum" is what he's thinking and he's barely even trying to hide it. If anything, the moderators are dragging their feet.

[Megagun]

I'd say that, for consistency, the entirety of the thread after and including Alen's second post in that thread should've been deleted due to offtopic-ness.

[Angelfish]

Moderation requires [...] easing your mindset into people's thoughts [...]

Try and put yourself in Nuclear's mindset. "I'm going to shit all over this forum" is what he's thinking and he's barely even trying to hide it. If anything, the moderators are dragging their feet.

I check this forum quite actively and I have seen no such behaviour. Unless you consider enthousiasticly posting many posts a day which are slightly offtopic, shitting allover this forum..

[Shiver]

I check this forum quite actively and I have seen no such behaviour. Unless you consider enthousiasticly posting many posts a day which are slightly offtopic, shitting allover this forum..

Then you lack basic pattern recognition.

[Lukipela]

It's not like there's hundreds of posts on this forum every day, so I don't see why the moderation over here has to be so harsh . Needless to say, I've lowered Lukipela's karma by his request.
Also, kind requests to keep things ontopic are way better than 'or else' posturing. I don't know where Lukipela got the idea that waving around a big stick is going to convince anyone. Moderation requires a bit of social skills, knowing when to use subtlety, easing your mindset into people's thoughts, participating as a discussion leader in discussions, and ultimately using the big stick when things go wrong.
Using the big stick too early will alienate people from the community, causing them to see it as a place for serious discussion instead of a fun place to hang out with your star control friends.
Hopefully, things will improve .

Thank you for that Angelfish. I am seriously committed to keeping this forum as open and friendly as I can, whilst preserving some of it's original purpose. While you may feel like I'm waving a big stick around far too much, I'd like to point out that I was pretty sure a thread like this was forthcoming. Instead of waving said stick even harder and refusing discussion, I thought this would be a good time to air any and all questions new members might have. I appreciate open and honest criticism.

We try to give you as much leeway as possible. As I've repeatedly told people, derailing threads in OT is perfectly all right. They'll right themselves eventually, or not. In fact, I'm dedicated to keeping OT as close to the old wild days as I can, so that is a pretty free place. Most threads there are careening out of control, but that's okay. That’s what the OT is for really. A place to be silly and let your hair down.

But this isn't OT. On the rest of the forum, you are required to keep some semblance of coherence in your posts. There’s still a lot of leeway here to have fun though. I may have nuked part of the thread, but as Megagun pointed out, the whole Goomba thing is still there. That's because even though it's a pretty wild tangent, it still references Mycon in a fashion. But when you go completely off topic and just start sprouting random sentences, then you are in fact off topic. And that’s when I feel I have to step in. Because this forum is supposed to be a Star Control forum. Not a forum where some threads may vaguely reference SC but are mostly filled with idle chatter that could be found in any chat room on the internet.

There is another worry here as well. We try our best to attract new members, yes. New members interested in Star Control, in discussing it and having fun with the community. But if new members arrive here and only find half a dozen chat threads with some vague references to SC, do you relly think they’ll stay around? Obviously I’m using hyperbole here, because we’re nowhere near that yet. But if the moderators don’t do anything, that’s what happens eventually.

As for what moderation requires, let me expand a little bit on the current case. So far, moderation for nuclear has included

1.   A helpful welcome message from Eth with some hints and pointers on netiquette
2.   An equally friendly message from me, with some further suggestions
3.   An uofficial warning from Eth to tone down the postspamming and try to stay more on topic.
4.   Another PM from me with further helpful suggestions on how to combat his karma sinking as a rock
5.   An official warning for continued spamming and apparently ignoring everything he was told.
6.   A 1 day ban to bring it home that we aren’t playing around and that he needs to shape up or slip out.
7.   Deletion off completely random off topic posts in an unrelated thread, as per the actual forum rules.

Now I understand that some may feel we’re too harsh on Nuclear. He’s obviously just a kid, and he doesn’t mean to do harm. But the fact of the matter is that not only are members complaining in PM’s, threads are getting spammed up. We recently had this before you arrived with jaychant as well, and it eventually comes down to different parts of the community taking different sides and starting to bicker with each other over what is acceptable and what isn’t. Then flaming each other. Then flaming other newbies that just happen to arrive. Eventually, the community spirit is a sour puddle of pus on the ground.

And I’d really prefer to not have that again.

Also, I’m eagerly listening to feedback. While you guys don’t exactly have votes, your opinions matter. I f enough of you voice the opinion that you’re fine with spam and such, I’ll go a bit lighter on it.

Also, watch your tone. It’s fine if you disagree with each other, but don’t take it personally or get abusive.

[Eth]

  I see in Nuclear a similar posting behavior we saw with both Rider and with jaychant when they first arrived.  Rider grew into a valued member of the community, while jaychant essentially ruined to board.  I am hoping that we can teach Nuclear to be a Rider, rather than a jaychant.  I generally try to maintain a light touch with you guys, but I consider Nuclear to be a special case worthy of increased attention. 

[Nuclear]

Shiver: (pulls up pants) now what now?

I see here a conflict of interest of how some of the forum veterans may claim my posts as "unworthy" while other people think of my posts as what there supposed to be, humouress yet still informative. Maby one day (with 600 posts on my belt), I'll seriously consider what I like and what other people like. But actually, all my problems have to do with my PSP and laziness and even then,the later has to do with how harsh it is to type on a durn PSP!

[gihren]

At your rate, you'll have 600 posts your third month here.  I use the word "post" lightly in your case.  A post is information in a reasonably organized manner that says all it needs to in a single post.  A reply is a new post, not a continuation of a post (with exception to a bump to either revive vital, unanswered information or for new data when it's been a while since your own last post).  Shiver's been here over a year and a half and is just over 300 posts.

Please, don't post wildly.  Please, please don't use immaturity as an excuse for everything someone says or does you don't like.  That Karma rating over your head is like a review.  If someone thinks you have a valid and well said point, they bump it up, if they think it's useless or flaming, they drop it a point.

Finally, please try to use a computer to post more often.  I don't like reading multi-page threads when I'm starting at square one.  If square one, the original post, takes up an entire page, I really don't want to try and get into a thread.  I know it's a function of your PSP, but it gets to be an eyesore really fast.

We're not trying to bash or drive you away, this is an honest and open discussion.  We like seeing new folks, we simply want a sense of order to the forums to keep things smooth and clear.

[Eth]

I see here a conflict of interest of how some of the forum veterans may claim my posts as "unworthy" while other people think of my posts as what there supposed to be, humouress yet still informative.

Nuclear, I challenge you to provide a single instance where anyone has described one of your posts as "informative."

Maby one day (with 600 posts on my belt), I'll seriously consider what I like and what other people like. But actually, all my problems have to do with my PSP and laziness and even then,the later has to do with how harsh it is to type on a durn PSP!

It is clear to everyone that the difficulties in typing with the PSP has done nothing to inhibit your output.  We (the mods and admins) have made it abundantly clear that your current behavior is unacceptable.  You either need to think about your posts before you start typing, and post appropriately, or you will be on a short road to being banned from the forum.  If you are too lazy to improve your posting, we simply do not want you here, understand?

[Angelfish]

You áre too harsh on Nuclear. All kinds of messages have been sent in private while a whole thread was derailing. I received no such messages, but some of my posts have been erased!
This makes it crystal clear that it's just another case of a classical star control welcome to newbies, just like you've done with Jaychant, Rider, Vallagar and who knows who more.

Next time you intend on performing such a warning function, do it in the thread itself or don't do it at all. That way, when moderators start waving the deletion or banstick around, it won't come off as extremely harsh on people like me.

[Lukipela]

Shiver: (pulls up pants) now what now?

I see here a conflict of interest of how some of the forum veterans may claim my posts as "unworthy" while other people think of my posts as what there supposed to be, humouress yet still informative. Maby one day (with 600 posts on my belt), I'll seriously consider what I like and what other people like. But actually, all my problems have to do with my PSP and laziness and even then,the later has to do with how harsh it is to type on a durn PSP!

You know Nuclear, this is worrying. With this message you've clearly demonstrated that you are capable of writing posts that consists of several sentences, are mostly correct in spelling and actually have some thought behind them other than "look at me". And as a reason for spamming and breaking the rules you give "I'm lazy and it's hard on a PSP". We can't give you special treatment because you're on a handheld. If you can't be bothered adhere to the rules and guidelines because the PSP is a crummy web-browser, then we can't ask all the other members to adapt to you. You have to adapt to them. Look at this thread. There's a single person here who thinks all your posts are all right and fine, whereas everyone else disagrees. You're not being hounded by the moderators, you're just demanding special treatment at the expense of everyone else.

You áre too harsh on Nuclear. All kinds of messages have been sent in private while a whole thread was derailing.

That is your opinion. It doesn't seems to be shared by many other people. One of the jobs of a moderator is to keep the community functioning. That means listening to the members and doing your best to keep things rolling. You also seem to think that this is all about one thread derailing, which it isn't. Those messages I described have been flying ever since Nuclear arrived here. While you may be fine with him, many others aren't. I can't cater only to your taste in moderation, I have a whole slew of members to think of.

Besides, we have to be fair as well. A few weeks back Shiver got an official warning for being too aggressive. While he may not have felt that it was deserved, he did heed it. It'd be pretty hypocritical to only enforce the rules in a few specific instances against established posters while letting newcomers ignore all rules, warning and instructions. Especially when those have been sent several times.

I received no such messages, but some of my posts have been erased!

This is true. I originally just wiped Nuclear's last message about Eth's new profile text since it was completely and hopelessly in the wrong place. After that I took a critical look at the rest of the page and realised that it was all completely off topic. It had derailed when Nuclear posted a single smilie and not gone back on track after that. Deleting just his off topic post would have been a bit pointless, so I wiped the rest as well. Neither you nor anyone else was notified in this case, because this was a pretty blatant violation of the guidelines. Specifically guideline 5, 3 and 1. I didn't think that it warranted giving out warnings, even of the unofficial kind since it was pretty clear what derailed it, Nuclear spamming and everyone happily jumping the derail bandwagon. I'm a big softie like that, since you all probably should have gotten at least unofficial warnings.
 

This makes it crystal clear that it's just another case of a classical star control welcome to newbies, just like you've done with Jaychant, Rider, Vallagar and who knows who more.

While I encourage open discussion, I'd appreciate if you actually took a few minutes to research your allegations before throwing them out there. When Valaggar and Jaychant arrived there was no moderation. I wasn't a moderator, nor was Eth. The end result was that almost every active thread on the board was derailed. Jaychant in particular kept doing his best to derail and spam up threads just for fun. So the community divided neatly into two parts, one taking each side. Sedodes merrily flamed jaychant and Valaggar and everyone who took their side for any reason. The entire board was pretty worthless for a while, no discussions going on except those arguments. That's why we have moderators now. Imagine for a second if we didn't. It'd go something like this:

Nuclear keeps posting super short and off topic posts in every topic. Eventually someone gets pissed off and starts flaming him. You start posting in his defence in every topic. Some people will agree with you, others with whoever started flaming Nuclear. Eventually several board members go off in disgust because every thread turns into the same stupid argument as soon as that one person shows up.

Back when Rider was a newbie, I was a newbie too, not a mod. The mods protected him from the worst flames, and let him know how much off topic was okay. The difference between Rider and Nuclear is that Rider actually listened and learned.

Next time you intend on performing such a warning function, do it in the thread itself or don't do it at all. That way, when moderators start waving the deletion or banstick around, it won't come off as extremely harsh on people like me.

Next time a thread already has been derailed for a page because I can't watch Nuclear like a hawk every waking second I should post a message telling everyone to not derail it in the past even though they've agreed not to do so by signing up here in the first place? Look, we do already post messages about getting back on track every now and then. There are several instances of that on the board. Look in the BEL thread for a friendly example and in the Illustrations thread for another example. It's not my job to go into every thread on the board and post "Don't derail ppl kthx" on every page. If you guys, after being told several times in multiple different threads that you should try to stay on topic outside of the Off Topic section, still can't find it in your hearts to even stay a smidgeon on topic then you can't seriously expect me to just do the same thing over and over again. Sooner or later the stick has to come out, and now it did.

So far, most people seem if not unhappy, then at least not displeased. I haven't seen a huge karma loss either, rather an increase. I'll keep an eye on it for the next 72 hours to see if it dives, but so far the moderation seems to be tacitly approved by those memebrs who care about things like these.

[Megagun]

So far, most people seem if not unhappy, then at least not displeased. I haven't seen a huge karma loss either, rather an increase. I'll keep an eye on it for the next 72 hours to see if it dives, but so far the moderation seems to be tacitly approved by those memebrs who care about things like these.

Please let that be the last time someone lays a claim on a community's overall feeling regarding something based on karma, mostly because some people just don't really use a board's karma features at all (like myself!), and thus you'll get results that might very well be way off...

In fact, I'm starting to wonder why there isn't an "opt-out of Karma" feature, which allows a user to not get Karmavoted on, but also prevents said user to karma-vote others..