Net Melee Balance Mod Discussion

[Bleeding Star]

Well, I'll do this bit by bit, otherwise I won't write anything. I don't Net-Melee much, so they're more general comments, but I do use hotseat PvP occasionally.

Overall, I'm in favour of almost all of the changes. The new points values are also much more sensible, though I do think that odd numbers don't induce that many headaches and should be still viable.

Androsynth.
-New points value much more appropriate
-Longer blazer lifespan is really noticable and makes it a much more viable weapon. Trail looks cool.

Arilou.
- New teleports are awesome, though as I'm always accelerating, I do find it hard to remember to let off the thrust button for the defensive teleport. Also the increased teleport cooldown is good, and in fact maybe it could be increased further?

Chenjesu.
- New shards are much better defensively, not so good offensively. I do like this:it's amazing how quick you can clear the Ur-Quan fighters.
- Also happy with the free DOGI.

Chmmr.
- I think that high mass should be a virtue in some circumstances. Would prefer the old masses for the large ships, but don't really care that much

Druuge.
- Happy with the choice to mostly leave it alone.
- Would perhaps be in favour of reducing max speed under recoil - it's pretty ridiculous at the moment.

Earthling.
- Minimal changes, no problem.

Ilwrath.
- Visible-while-cloaked is very useful, and not that you'll care, but it's nice against the AI too. I'm also fully in favour of the removal of auto-facing, as a result.
- The Tri-helfire spout is awesome. Finally I have a chance of killing an Arilou!
- Not so sure about reasons for the (relatively minor?) changes to the battery and energy regeneration - would be happy to have left them as previous. Or are there unforseen tactical consequences?

Kohr-Ah.
- FRIED cancellation is fine, though I would note that the Mauler Shells are much less tough (4) than the other projectiles you list and perhaps shouldn't be included. But I don't care much.

Melnorme.
- Minor changes, no problems

Mmrnmhrm.
- Minor changes, no problems

Mycon.
- Very much in favour of the lowered price
- Not so sure about the nerfs vs. Kohr-Ah (could you instead nerf the blades to favour the Mycon instead?)

Orz.
- The minor changes to the marines are good - I agree that they are a valuable resource. In particular, for a ship with only 16 crew, the recall feature is invaluable.

Pkunk
- AI specific gripe: As someone who plays a lot against the AI, I don't like the lowered point value, given that the AI is murder with a Fury. But I can see the rationale for PvP.

Shofixti
- While for gameplay reasons I perfectly understand the point increase, to me it just seems... wrong... to have the humble scout valued so highly. But I have no constructive suggestions for an alternative.
- Fine with changes to shielding. Much more consistent.

Slylandro
- consistentifying the lightning range is a good move. Not so sure why you've decided to make it seek cloaked ships though. Surely the poor Avenger deserves a break?

Spathi
- I hate fighting Probes. I'm glad there's a decent counter now.

Supox
- I love being able to reverse and turn. The altered controls did result in a few untimely deaths at first, though...

Syreen
- Nice little tweak on the Syreen Pvp. That fight is a crapshoot. Kind of makes sense that the Syreen would be resistant to their own powers, too, in case consistency matters to anyone.

Thraddash.
- More crew is good. A race of space-rhinos shouldn't have such a pussy ship.
- I like the new weapon, it's much less abusable, but am interested in the rationale behind the knockback. Also, the combination of damaging weapon and cheaper afterburner makes the Torch a good flanking ship, will be interested to see the consequences in melee.
- I guess the changes to afterburner are to make it a more viable weapon. Mostly in favour, but why the increased flame-puff toughness? It's just ephemeral flames...

Umgah.
- I'd be in favour of a drop to 4 points. If you didn't have an irrational aversion to odd point values, I'd say five was perfect.
- Seriously, is there anything you can do to improve the Umgah? More backwards zip? Longer range antimatter cone?

Ur-Quan.
- Jumbo fusion blasts look funny but they do make a noticeable difference.
- I love almost everything about the new fighters -they really make the Dreadnought pretty formidable. I think the 20 energy per squadron is a bit steep though. I like the emergency last minute fighter deployment and at 20 energy per squadron it's a lot more difficult.
- Not a fan of the energy-draining fighters at all - I'm sure there were balance reasons for putting it in (Yehat, Utwig?) but I just don't like it, mostly for stylistic reasons. To me, the dreadnought is all about domination and brute force - energy drain is the Chenjesu's thing.

Utwig.
- The 5 energy vs. Kohr-Ah does seem very heavy-handed, as you mentioned, and unneccessary. Given my objection to energy-draining ur-quan fighters, I also disagree with the changes with them.
- The other minor changes seem sensible and improve consistency.

VUX.
- I like the changes to limpet effects - previously, the first limpet was almost always a death sentence... albeit a very, very delayed one. This change means that you can still win with a couple of the bastards attached and not be completely useless for the next combat. Conversely, the immobilised status means the fights don't drag on endlessly.
- The changes to battery size, limpet cost and energy regeneration seem minor and kind of pointless. I'd be interested in the rationale behind them.

Yehat.
- All the changes to the shield are great. It makes the Yehat a lot less invulnerable - it's particularly noticeable against the AI.
- Lowered cost is much more appropriate, though I think maybe it's too low now. Perhaps 18 would be more suitable.
- Not relevant to your changes, but I've always thought that the Yehat should be faster - it's really crippled by it's relatively slow speed (though, as you note, gravity whips are an option).

Zoq-Fot-Piq.
- Not much to say, really. I agree, I don't think it needs any modifications.

[Shiver]

The new points values are also much more sensible, though I do think that odd numbers don't induce that many headaches and should be still viable.

I would need 8-10 ships that are best priced at an odd number to make this suggestion worth implementing. Right now I can think of one: Syreen at 15.

Arilou.
- New teleports are awesome, though as I'm always accelerating, I do find it hard to remember to let off the thrust button for the defensive teleport. Also the increased teleport cooldown is good, and in fact maybe it could be increased further?

Teleport cooldown has a dramatic impact on the ship's performance. I tried a 100 laser range, 2 frame cooldown teleport, near-instant arrival and was able to kill Gekko's Kohr-Ah a few times with that. While fun to play, it was obviously broken. The current Arilou is still a terror, though it's supposed to be. Given that Shofixti and Ilwrath can kill it, Arilou needs to take down something big like Melnorme or Androsynth to break even. Currently I think it is at just the right level.

Chenjesu.
- New shards are much better defensively, not so good offensively. I do like this:it's amazing how quick you can clear the Ur-Quan fighters.
- Also happy with the free DOGI.

The current Chenjesu needs a price drop to 24 at least. It has severe problems against Mycon. The old Chenjesu has difficulty with Mycon as well, but it can come out on top more often than not.

Chmmr.
- I think that high mass should be a virtue in some circumstances. Would prefer the old masses for the large ships, but don't really care that much

My rationale for giving Chmmr an extra edge against Ur-Quan, Kohr-Ah and Chenjesu is that Chmmr is the easiest of the 30 point ships to deal with. Kohr-Ah's one solid counter is Utwig. Ur-Quan's one solid counter is Chenjesu. Chmmr can lose to Utwig or Druuge and is threatened by Shofixti. It can also take an awful beating from a long list of ships if its satellites are gone. I felt Chmmr should be slightly more effective against Ur-Quan and Kohr-Ah to compensate for its vulnerability.

Druuge.
- Happy with the choice to mostly leave it alone.
- Would perhaps be in favour of reducing max speed under recoil - it's pretty ridiculous at the moment.

You're suppose to use Druuge's default thruster as a brake, and be penalized if you throw the ship out of control. I could lower the recoil max speed to 84 maybe. 96 speed isn't really a balance problem, it just looks a little silly.

Ilwrath.
- Not so sure about reasons for the (relatively minor?) changes to the battery and energy regeneration - would be happy to have left them as previous. Or are there unforseen tactical consequences?

There are. #uqm-arena house rules dictate (if anyone has a problem with these, that's another topic entirely) Androsynth can only go on the defensive with its bubble weapon against very fast ships. Ilwrath with its old spout could sometimes beat Androsynth's comet form. This was okay in vanilla because...

1) Androsynth only costed 15.
2) Decloak-attack auto-turning would often face the Ilwrath way off target, while not cloaking at all made it easier for Androsynth to flank the Ilwrath.

Ilwrath's old firepower + visible-to-pilot-while-cloaked + auto-turn removed = dead Androsynth more than half the time. Any uptweaks to the Ilwrath's spout would have to be very slight. I suppose I could look into that for the next version.

Kohr-Ah.
- FRIED cancellation is fine, though I would note that the Mauler Shells are much less tough (4) than the other projectiles you list and perhaps shouldn't be included. But I don't care much.

I went by six damage or higher = cancel. Truthfully I don't care much either whether Druuge shells can break FRIED clouds or not. Won't be fixing it unless it becomes an issue.

Mycon.
- Very much in favour of the lowered price
- Not so sure about the nerfs vs. Kohr-Ah (could you instead nerf the blades to favour the Mycon instead?)

Mycon / Kohr-Ah matches in vanilla are completely atrocious if the Mycon player knows how to play keep-away well enough. Going by vanilla Star Control 2, a decent Kohr-Ah would almost always come out on top, but the damage it would sustain varied from 0-30. The fight just isn't fun, though, so I'd rather it end quickly. If I were to turn Mycon into a decent Kohr-Ah killer, its price would have to go back up to 20 or 22. Given that Mycon can be killed of by Zoq-Fot-Pik, I am not keen on raising its price any higher.


I'm also convinced that Yehat is overpowered and will be pricing it up to 18 next version.

[Lukipela]

I love little green fighters. More comments to follow, in case you give a shit.

I love how "more comments to follow" is actually true, but takes place a month later. This really isn't the board for people who want answers in a hurry 

[Bleeding Star]

I love how "more comments to follow" is actually true, but takes place a month later. This really isn't the board for people who want answers in a hurry 

Good things take time. I've also finally updated my post above to address all the ships.

With regard to Shiver's comments, thanks for the explanations, I'm on board with most of them. The altered points values, while not always perfect, seem a lot better than the originals. The whole "counter" mindset is a bit alien to me but I can see why you need it for competitive melee. I'm particularly in favour of the changes where you improve consistency (Utwig shielding vs. glory device, Slylandro lightning range) or make minor changes to minimize boring combats. Conversely, the changes I don't like are ones that reduce consistency (Slylandro lightning seeks cloaked ships, Utwig gets more energy vs. kohr-ah, Mycon plasmoids vs blades), where the changes provide exceptions for particular ship v. ship combos. I can see why you're doing them but the methods are pretty inelegant.

But I'll re-iterate that overall it seems an immense improvement.

[Shiver]

Version 1.1 is in the pipeline. I'll list all the changes when they are finalized.

Conversely, the changes I don't like are ones that reduce consistency (Slylandro lightning seeks cloaked ships, Utwig gets more energy vs. kohr-ah, Mycon plasmoids vs blades), where the changes provide exceptions for particular ship v. ship combos. I can see why you're doing them but the methods are pretty inelegant.

I will state for the record that I don't like those changes either in principle. In practice, they're essential for balance. If you have alternate fixes for these problems (I will explain my take on each of those in the text below), I would be happy to hear them.

I thought about it again and decided I really do hate those kind of fixes. So I'm currently in the process of trying out new builds for several of the problem ships that do not involve some of the more obnoxious exceptions.

Pkunk
- AI specific gripe: As someone who plays a lot against the AI, I don't like the lowered point value, given that the AI is murder with a Fury. But I can see the rationale for PvP.

If you think the AI Pkunk is deadly, you haven't seen the worst of that ship. So yeah, it needed a price increase. I had it at 16 because a Pkunk that never respawns at all is total garbage, and that's a problem half the time. The new revive changes should fix that.

Shofixti
- While for gameplay reasons I perfectly understand the point increase, to me it just seems... wrong... to have the humble scout valued so highly. But I have no constructive suggestions for an alternative.
- Fine with changes to shielding. Much more consistent.

8 price is weird for such a small ship. I suppose miniaturization is expensive, making the Scout more difficult to manufacture than a ZFP Stinger?

Slylandro
- consistentifying the lightning range is a good move. Not so sure why you've decided to make it seek cloaked ships though. Surely the poor Avenger deserves a break?

Visible-to-pilot-while-cloaked is difficult to deal with as Slylandro. Ilwrath costs 10 points, and I would like to keep it that way. My lame explanation is that the lightning weapon has no tracking capability to speak of, it's simply attracted to enemy ships. This is unfortunately one of those bad exceptions I'm probably going to hold on to for the foreseeable future.

Thraddash.
- More crew is good. A race of space-rhinos shouldn't have such a pussy ship.
- I like the new weapon, it's much less abusable, but am interested in the rationale behind the knockback. Also, the combination of damaging weapon and cheaper afterburner makes the Torch a good flanking ship, will be interested to see the consequences in melee.
- I guess the changes to afterburner are to make it a more viable weapon. Mostly in favour, but why the increased flame-puff toughness? It's just ephemeral flames...

You can push other ships into your flame trails with the knockback weapon. Not the easiest thing in the world to do against most ships. It works very well if your opponent tries to pillbox or orbit against you, and is devastating against Earthling. If a player pillboxes or orbits against Thraddash, try burning a circle of napalm around them and then attack head-on.

The napalm hitpoint value of 2 is to prevent Chmmr satellites, Ur-Quan fighters and Earthling point defense from clearing these away.

Umgah.
- I'd be in favour of a drop to 4 points. If you didn't have an irrational aversion to odd point values, I'd say five was perfect.
- Seriously, is there anything you can do to improve the Umgah? More backwards zip? Longer range antimatter cone?

Years ago we had a player that used to visit the arena that was horrifyingly effective with Umgah. He could kill my Druuge with it half the time. I could swear he was using some sort of AI script, as I don't believe it's humanly possible to control a zipping Umgah as perfectly as he did. In any case, there is no way I would let that guy use a 4 point Umgah. Every time someone mentions how Umgah could use a buff, I suffer horrible Vietnam PTSD flashbacks of my games against this person.

Ur-Quan.
- I love almost everything about the new fighters -they really make the Dreadnought pretty formidable. I think the 20 energy per squadron is a bit steep though. I like the emergency last minute fighter deployment and at 20 energy per squadron it's a lot more difficult.
- Not a fan of the energy-draining fighters at all - I'm sure there were balance reasons for putting it in (Yehat, Utwig?) but I just don't like it, mostly for stylistic reasons. To me, the dreadnought is all about domination and brute force - energy drain is the Chenjesu's thing.

I tested 16 cost launch just now and it was too low. The current fighters are too devastating.

Energy drain was implemented primarily to allow Ur-Quan to walk right over Utwig. There was no other way to do it, and I could not stand the idea of Utwig performing well against all three 30-point ships. Ur-Quan is the most difficult of the three ships for Utwig to take down, but it's still more likely to lose than to win against an Utwig player that's good with the shields. That said, I'm examining Ur-Quan right now to see if I can keep the game balanced right without energy drain.

Utwig.
- The 5 energy vs. Kohr-Ah does seem very heavy-handed, as you mentioned, and unneccessary. Given my objection to energy-draining ur-quan fighters, I also disagree with the changes with them.

Most players can't beat player-controlled Kohr-Ah with Utwig, yet that is the only reliable counter there is at high level play. I wanted to make that match-up easier to win without crippling Kohr-Ah or improving Utwig.

Update: I found a better way to make Utwig better against Kohr-Ah without overpowering it or using a stupid exception clause. This will be implemented in the next version as a replacement.

VUX.
- The changes to battery size, limpet cost and energy regeneration seem minor and kind of pointless. I'd be interested in the rationale behind them.

I made the laser a little less of an energy hog and limpets a little less spammy. Less limpet spamming makes it easier for Syreen and Shofixti to beat a defensive VUX. The tweaks are small, but not inconsequential.

Yehat.
- All the changes to the shield are great. It makes the Yehat a lot less invulnerable - it's particularly noticeable against the AI.
- Lowered cost is much more appropriate, though I think maybe it's too low now. Perhaps 18 would be more suitable.
- Not relevant to your changes, but I've always thought that the Yehat should be faster - it's really crippled by it's relatively slow speed (though, as you note, gravity whips are an option).

A faster Yehat with weaker shields was an idea I toyed around with, but that seemed too different from the default.

[Lukipela]

Moderators, can you split off all posts beginning with Bleeding Star's first one into a new thread in the game mods subforum? That would be much appreciated.

Sure. Glad to see that there's some discussion on the subject.

EDIT: Moved it to the correct place, need to work on my reading skill apparently.

[Death 999]

I really didn't like the energy drain on the Ur-Quan. It just seemed out of character. I'm curious what alternate change you had in mind.

Umgah... as much as I know how strong they can be, I think I'd still rather give them back the wingtips on their cone. It only helps the super-skilled a little on the defense, but it gives us ordinary folk a decent sideswiping weapon.

[Shiver]

I really didn't like the energy drain on the Ur-Quan. It just seemed out of character. I'm curious what alternate change you had in mind.

The plan is to abandon the whole "Ur-Quan defeats Utwig" angle, price Utwig up higher to make up for the fact that it can destroy all three 30 point ships and design another counter to Kohr-Ah to compensate for the new expensive Utwig. But what to use? Kohr-Ah is such a well-tuned ship, it beats pretty much everything.

Umgah... as much as I know how strong they can be, I think I'd still rather give them back the wingtips on their cone. It only helps the super-skilled a little on the defense, but it gives us ordinary folk a decent sideswiping weapon.

I'll think about it. Being able to counter Ilwrath is nice though, because Ilwrath is pretty solid.

[Lukipela]

Keeping in mind that I probably shouldn't open my mouth about melee things, what about the Yehat? It seems to at least superficially fit the bill. I assume the improved shield makes it much better against FRIED and makes dealing with discs easier as well. It has a weapon with fair range, especially if you manage to strafe or force the opponent to move your way. Of course, pillboxing might be troublesome, but not as troublesome as for a craft that isn't shielded.

[Bleeding Star]

Ur-Quan:
I tested 16 cost launch just now and it was too low. The current fighters are too devastating.
Energy drain was implemented primarily to allow Ur-Quan to walk right over Utwig.

How about just making it so the fighters don't recharge the Utwig shield, but removing the energy drain? Yes I realise that this is an exceptional change that decreases consistency, like the ones I was bitching about, but I really don't like the energy drain and this does keep the Ur-Quan as an effective Utwig killer. Lame rationalisation: fighter lasers just too pussy to recharge the batteries.

As regards the fighter cost, perhaps maintain at 5/ship but change it back to 2 fighters/squadron. That maintains the cost-kill ratio but facilitates last-minute deployment.

Slylandro:
Visible-to-pilot-while-cloaked is difficult to deal with as Slylandro. Ilwrath costs 10 points, and I would like to keep it that way. My lame explanation is that the lightning weapon has no tracking capability to speak of, it's simply attracted to enemy ships.

This is a lame explanation that I could go with. On the other hand, you could bump up the cost of Ilwrath by one or two and make the lightning not-track.

Umgah:
Years ago we had a player that used to visit the arena that was horrifyingly effective with Umgah. He could kill my Druuge with it half the time. I could swear he was using some sort of AI script, as I don't believe it's humanly possible to control a zipping Umgah as perfectly as he did. In any case, there is no way I would let that guy use a 4 point Umgah.

I take it that this is in a minority, though? Almost everyone else is shite with a Drone, yeah? If you don't want to knock down the price then I do think some minor strengthening of the Drone might be in order. Hmmm, forwards zip? Now that would be deadly...(not serious).

Lukipela says:
Yehat:
Keeping in mind that I probably shouldn't open my mouth about melee things, what about the Yehat? It seems to at least superficially fit the bill. I assume the improved shield makes it much better against FRIED and makes dealing with discs easier as well. It has a weapon with fair range, especially if you manage to strafe or force the opponent to move your way. Of course, pillboxing might be troublesome, but not as troublesome as for a craft that isn't shielded.

Especially if you improved the speed just a little so that it can chase down a Kohr-Ah. Perhaps up to Orz-speed? Seriously, it seems a good candidate for a counter, and it would only be a minor change.

Chmmr:
As the Utwig is so (too?) good against Chrmmr, how about this little change.
Chmmr: Down key stops zapsats firing.
The Utwig still has a fair chance but there's no auto-recharge anymore. Druuge still remains as a hard counter.

[Shiver]

How about just making it so the fighters don't recharge the Utwig shield, but removing the energy drain? Yes I realise that this is an exceptional change that decreases consistency, like the ones I was bitching about, but I really don't like the energy drain and this does keep the Ur-Quan as an effective Utwig killer. Lame rationalisation: fighter lasers just too pussy to recharge the batteries.

As regards the fighter cost, perhaps maintain at 5/ship but change it back to 2 fighters/squadron. That maintains the cost-kill ratio but facilitates last-minute deployment.

Nope. I'm using energy-sapping fighters or an Ur-Quan that loses to Utwig. Nonsensical exceptions must be kept to a minimum. The non-drain Ur-Quan is set up to launch 4 at a time, 4 energy per fighter, maximum of 16 deployed. Squadrons of two are very abusive and I don't think I'll be using them.

I take it that this is in a minority, though? Almost everyone else is shite with a Drone, yeah? If you don't want to knock down the price then I do think some minor strengthening of the Drone might be in order. Hmmm, forwards zip? Now that would be deadly...(not serious).

I'm open to suggestions for the Drone, but have no ideas for it myself.


Regarding Yehat as a Kohr-Ah counter: That has been looked at before, though I haven't tried everything yet. Default Yehat can reach shooting distance without taking damage pretty easily by using its shields and a gravity whip, so that isn't an issue. The big stumbling block is that Yehat's twin pulse cannons can be blocked by Kohr-Ah's projectiles when both ships fire on each other and the Yehat isn't fast enough to flank Kohr-Ah. My high firepower Yehat build was a flop because of this. I'll try a faster Yehat with Gekko when he's available on the weekend.

Chmmr:
As the Utwig is so (too?) good against Chrmmr, how about this little change.
Chmmr: Down key stops zapsats firing.
The Utwig still has a fair chance but there's no auto-recharge anymore. Druuge still remains as a hard counter.

Druuge is not a hard counter to Chmmr. It's simply a good pick.

[Lukipela]

Shooting off my mouth about things I've no experience again, what about an optional change of the cannon angles? You're already using the down button for a lot. If "Down+Fire" allows the Yehat to fire in an outward V-shape instead of straight ahead, wouldn't that give it some more usability? The shield could be used to guard against blades and angling the cannon back and forth would allow you to partially fire past blades. It wouldn't be insta kill, but couldn't it plausibly make it very hard for the Marauder to protect itself against Terminator fire? Or would that unbalance the ship in other fights?

[Death 999]

What about just telling fighters not to fire upon shielded Utwig? Works out an awful lot like energy drain, but just for Utwig.

[Shiver]

Shooting off my mouth about things I've no experience again, what about an optional change of the cannon angles? You're already using the down button for a lot. If "Down+Fire" allows the Yehat to fire in an outward V-shape instead of straight ahead, wouldn't that give it some more usability? The shield could be used to guard against blades and angling the cannon back and forth would allow you to partially fire past blades. It wouldn't be insta kill, but couldn't it plausibly make it very hard for the Marauder to protect itself against Terminator fire? Or would that unbalance the ship in other fights?

Interesting idea, although I don't think it would work as you described. That would allow Yehat to fire from unusual firing angles that the Kohr-Ah can't hit directly. It sounds very clunky and frustrating to take advantage of, so I'm not inclined to try and program it just to see how it works. I tried out a slightly faster Yehat today and that didn't do the trick. Yehat would need to move like Orz or Syreen to beat Kohr-Ah with its current shielding scheme, which would harm more than help the overall game balance situation. I've given up on Yehat as a Kohr-Ah killer for now.


I'm looking at Mycon again. I came up with a new, highly obnoxious approach involving the planet that makes Mycon a lot more viable against Kohr-Ah. It could potentially turn default Mycon into a Kohr-Ah killer, though I haven't tested it extensively enough to say for sure. The special exceptions I've put in place for Mycon vs. Kohr-Ah are being removed, but Mycon's ship stats aren't likely to stay the same.


Update: After much finagling around with Ur-Quan, I've decided that fighter energy drain is essential. Ur-Quan vs Kohr-Ah is virtually unwinnable for Ur-Quan without that drain, even if you turn up fighter damage-per-second to ridiculous levels. The 30 point ships need to be evenly matched, and energy drain is what makes fighters effective against Kohr-Ah.

[Death 999]

It looks like the new Ur-Quan curbstomps Earthlings, first shooting down the missiles and swarming it with fighters. The moment one gets a shot in, it's over because regenerating enough energy to shoot them down is impossible.

Consider increasing the range on the PDL, or making it cheaper so it can better keep up with a stream of incoming fighters?