Project 6014: Demo 2 released!

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oldlaptop
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Re: Project 6014: Demo 2 released!

Post by oldlaptop » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:00 am

Angelfish wrote: I know that the UQM code works with 'turn once every x clock cycles' or something like that. Atleast that's what's held more angles back in the past. I don't see any issues with physics, AI and player balancing really, unless you're talking about long range firing ships like the druuge.
Druuge would be a huge issue. Timewarp (64 angles as opposed to 16 in original SC/UQM) had to jack the cost up, as I recall. Heck, even changing to high-res sprites could mess things up in certain cases (e.g. ship is easier/harder to hit, or Androsynth wedges on cool-looking notches, etc). There's a reason Shiver's Balance Mod has taken so long to get where it is, this stuff can get touchy at higher levels of play.
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Re: Project 6014: Demo 2 released!

Post by superbutcherx » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:03 pm

chenjesuwizard wrote:
Dyandod wrote: I haven't seen the Earthling supply ship between Sol and Procyon. Is it gone or am I just missing it?
Heh, the code ain't perfect and that's something I've forgotten about when doing a truckload of other stuff. If you wait inside the Procyon system when the Transport ship isn't there, you'll have wait forever. Since the ships are generated into an IP system when you enter the system in question, no new ships are generated during the time you spend in the system.

But if you wait in hyperspace near Sol, you should see the transport black globe arise from there from time to time. You can recognize it from the fact that it's the only globe that doesn't wanna chase you :)

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Re: Project 6014: Demo 2 released!

Post by superbutcherx » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:14 pm

I know that the UQM code works with 'turn once every x clock cycles' or something like that. Atleast that's what's held more angles back in the past. I don't see any issues with physics, AI and player balancing really, unless you're talking about long range firing ships like the druuge.
Doubling the angles would require doubling the melee frame rate from 24 to 48. Since fastest ships now turn one 22,5 degree facing per one frame there is no way to make them retain their original turning speed if we were to employ 32 facings and not increase the frame rate also.

Now, increasing the melee frame rate would require changing a shit-ton of constant numbers in the code. Not as many as in our HD mod, but so many that with our current number of programmers onboard I sure as hell don't want to start such an endeavour.

It would look more cool to have more angles, but not only would it be hard work - I'm leery about changing the well-established balance of the SC2 ships.

I've been thinking about the possibility to make ships in Hyperspace & IP have more angles though. I think there's more room to play with the FPS so the frame rate wouldn't necessarily have to be changed. It wouldn't mess up melee balance but would look nicer. Then again, not sure if people appreciate that kinda eye candy.

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Re: Project 6014: Demo 2 released!

Post by TSC » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:28 pm

Well... I'll say this... Storywise I think this project looks pretty promising, although I do have a few comments.

First of all... the Shofixti... Can't they settle on Organon? The Mycon failed to destroy it after all.

The Mycon... don't they need shattered worlds to EXPAND? They seem to REPRODUCE very easily, doing so in their own ships, as soon as they have worlds like that.

I also thought the Chmmr seemed a little hammy when you tell them what the Yehat said, if they're gonna be bad guys, they should I think be a little more subtle, though that's a very minor point.

I like the rest of what I've seen.


Unfortunately new ship wise I'm not so happy at all. The new ships are INCREDIBLY gimmicky to me. And I only really like the FoonFoon one. Which is gimmicky too, but in an entertaining way. (Although the AI just avoids you with that thing.)

The Baul has all the flaws of the Thraddash Torch and none of the charm and even if the explosions would damage the Baul itself it's still a gimmick ship that plays pretty poorly. You can't play aggressively with it, only defensively after all. Honestly, I'd nix that thing entirely.

The Lurg ship... just ugh... I think it would work if it was converted to a pure attack ship, that bubble field really just makes it ANNOYING, and not in a fun way.

And remove that stupid Star Wars ship. It just doesn't fit.

EDIT: I DO like the Explorer though, fair is fair, forgot about that. Although I think the range of it's gun and it's fuel regeneration should be boosted. And maybe it's crew complement lowered to 42. Gives it more punch.


I think the team is much to afraid to upset the SC2 balance. And I think that's not working out. So here's some advice. Forget the SC2 balance, because ANY new ship, even gimmicky ones WILL upset the balance. I mean I once suggested making a ship that would counter a Jugger, and that was considered undesirable, but guess what, the Baul ship (much as I hate that thing) does just that actually, considering how the AI deals with that thing.

So forget the balance, just make new ships, and if they have a gimmick, don't let that gimmick completely dominate the design. Then after some gameplay assign each ship new value that reflect the NEW balance. Because there'll be a new balance no matter what you do. Sure it might mean some ships go down in price, and some go up, so what? With a few new ships that's probably what SHOULD happen! It's more important that the new ships are fun (And honestly I only find the FoonFoon one to really be so (And it's still more of a novelty then anything else if you ask me.) then that they don't disturb the balance. Because guess what, no matter WHAT you add, some old ships will be strong or weak against that thing, so the OLD balance is shot either way.

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Re: Project 6014: Demo 2 released!

Post by Angelfish » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:36 pm

superbutcherx wrote:
I know that the UQM code works with 'turn once every x clock cycles' or something like that. Atleast that's what's held more angles back in the past. I don't see any issues with physics, AI and player balancing really, unless you're talking about long range firing ships like the druuge.
Doubling the angles would require doubling the melee frame rate from 24 to 48. Since fastest ships now turn one 22,5 degree facing per one frame there is no way to make them retain their original turning speed if we were to employ 32 facings and not increase the frame rate also.

Now, increasing the melee frame rate would require changing a shit-ton of constant numbers in the code. Not as many as in our HD mod, but so many that with our current number of programmers onboard I sure as hell don't want to start such an endeavour.

It would look more cool to have more angles, but not only would it be hard work - I'm leery about changing the well-established balance of the SC2 ships.

I've been thinking about the possibility to make ships in Hyperspace & IP have more angles though. I think there's more room to play with the FPS so the frame rate wouldn't necessarily have to be changed. It wouldn't mess up melee balance but would look nicer. Then again, not sure if people appreciate that kinda eye candy.
I don't really worry much about balance. To be honest, screw the melee guys holding something greater back :P.
To someone new to the Star Control universe the 16 angles just looks ridiculous especially at higher resolutions.

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Re: Project 6014: Demo 2 released!

Post by chenjesuwizard » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:27 pm

TSC wrote:
First of all... the Shofixti... Can't they settle on Organon? The Mycon failed to destroy it after all.
Go to Beta Gorno I and talk about how the settling is going. She explains it.

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Re: Project 6014: Demo 2 released!

Post by Lukipela » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:39 pm

Quinarbre wrote: You mean the shipyard, right ?

Well spotted.
Right.

Enjoying the new ships as well. The FoonFoon seems to be slightly off in balance to me. The main weapon has an extremely short range even though it doesn't lack a punch, but the special seems to just slice through anything. I get that it needs to get really close to do damage, but it seems almost too deadly once you get there.

The other ship just feels slightly annoying since you need to set up a two punch to do any damage at all. Any ship that doesn't give change will be invincible I think.

The Prawn is fun, and I'm finally figuring out how to fit with that darn weapon.

I guess there is no specific AI for these ships yet? Playing against them is pretty amusing.

Slowly replaying the demo and really enjoying it. The graphics seem slightly off to me, but I think it's just because I'm unused to such a high resolution in this game. It's kind of the way you feel when after reading a book, you watch the movie and it doesn't sync up with the image in your head.

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Re: Project 6014: Demo 2 released!

Post by Dyandod » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:03 pm

superbutcherx wrote:
chenjesuwizard wrote:
Dyandod wrote: I haven't seen the Earthling supply ship between Sol and Procyon. Is it gone or am I just missing it?
Heh, the code ain't perfect and that's something I've forgotten about when doing a truckload of other stuff. If you wait inside the Procyon system when the Transport ship isn't there, you'll have wait forever. Since the ships are generated into an IP system when you enter the system in question, no new ships are generated during the time you spend in the system.

But if you wait in hyperspace near Sol, you should see the transport black globe arise from there from time to time. You can recognize it from the fact that it's the only globe that doesn't wanna chase you :)
I just spent about two months hanging around outside of Sol but nothing ever came.


EDIT: You know, I was thinking... It would be really cool if there were more ships in Hyperspace that didn't just follow you around. Actually, perhaps even the majority of ships should do that: for example, when you're in Orz territory, there will be ships flying from Beta Vulpeculae to Delta, or from Gamma to Alpha, without ever follwing you.
It would be more realistic, at the very least.
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Re: Project 6014: Demo 2 released!

Post by dczanik » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:16 pm

TSC wrote:Well... I'll say this... Storywise I think this project looks pretty promising, although I do have a few comments.

First of all... the Shofixti... Can't they settle on Organon? The Mycon failed to destroy it after all.

The Mycon... don't they need shattered worlds to EXPAND? They seem to REPRODUCE very easily, doing so in their own ships, as soon as they have worlds like that.

I also thought the Chmmr seemed a little hammy when you tell them what the Yehat said, if they're gonna be bad guys, they should I think be a little more subtle, though that's a very minor point.

I like the rest of what I've seen.


Unfortunately new ship wise I'm not so happy at all. The new ships are INCREDIBLY gimmicky to me. And I only really like the FoonFoon one. Which is gimmicky too, but in an entertaining way. (Although the AI just avoids you with that thing.)

The Baul has all the flaws of the Thraddash Torch and none of the charm and even if the explosions would damage the Baul itself it's still a gimmick ship that plays pretty poorly. You can't play aggressively with it, only defensively after all. Honestly, I'd nix that thing entirely.

The Lurg ship... just ugh... I think it would work if it was converted to a pure attack ship, that bubble field really just makes it ANNOYING, and not in a fun way.

And remove that stupid Star Wars ship. It just doesn't fit.

EDIT: I DO like the Explorer though, fair is fair, forgot about that. Although I think the range of it's gun and it's fuel regeneration should be boosted. And maybe it's crew complement lowered to 42. Gives it more punch.


I think the team is much to afraid to upset the SC2 balance. And I think that's not working out. So here's some advice. Forget the SC2 balance, because ANY new ship, even gimmicky ones WILL upset the balance. I mean I once suggested making a ship that would counter a Jugger, and that was considered undesirable, but guess what, the Baul ship (much as I hate that thing) does just that actually, considering how the AI deals with that thing.

So forget the balance, just make new ships, and if they have a gimmick, don't let that gimmick completely dominate the design. Then after some gameplay assign each ship new value that reflect the NEW balance. Because there'll be a new balance no matter what you do. Sure it might mean some ships go down in price, and some go up, so what? With a few new ships that's probably what SHOULD happen! It's more important that the new ships are fun (And honestly I only find the FoonFoon one to really be so (And it's still more of a novelty then anything else if you ask me.) then that they don't disturb the balance. Because guess what, no matter WHAT you add, some old ships will be strong or weak against that thing, so the OLD balance is shot either way.
The UQM Forum has a section dedicated to the new ships.
http://forum.uqm.stack.nl/index.php?topic=5156.0
Even as a developer of the project I came down hard on the new ships myself. It really came down to lack of time. Our AI guy had real life interrupt his plans to work on it, so the other programmers had to do what they could in a tight schedule.

So I agree with everything you said. ...Except the ISD ship. F' that. I'm fighting to keep that in. Even if it's only as an option you have to turn on like the remix music. O0-smf

Storywise. I'll let others comment on that stuff.

Animation angles. I agree. It looked a little weird in 320x240. It looks worse in HD. But nobody wants to touch that programming challenge. Get us some programmers, and then maybe.
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Re: Project 6014: Demo 2 released!

Post by Cedric6014 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:44 pm

TSC wrote:....
Story, ships and everything else are a work in progress.

The flaws in the ships are becoming apparent as the community play-tests them. Some of the flaws we are already aware of but as Damon says we ran out of time to properly finish them off. A lot of work and thought go into the development of a creative, balanced ship. And we're not obsessed with preserving the balance although I have a personal preference restoring certain ships to be where I think they should be (Ur-Quan, Mycon, Androsynth, Yehat among others). The best device by which to achieve this is to tinker withthe strenths and weaknesses of the new ships.

Similarly, don't worry too much about the story either. What you have are fragments of the big picture. Anything that doesnt make sense now will hopefully be resolved when the whole plot emerges.

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