Looking for ship ideas

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runonthespot
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Re: Looking for ship ideas

Post by runonthespot »

That idea was, incidentally, inspired by the hypnotizing in Abe's Odyssey. :)
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MyOtheHedgeFox
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Re: Looking for ship ideas

Post by MyOtheHedgeFox »

Is it possible to make "composite" lasers which change their hit distance and damage over time?
I have an idea of a ship that shoots quite powerful laser like this:

( --- = 1 Arilou laser hit distance )

Frame 1:
0--- (damage: 2)

Frame 2:
0------ (damage: 2)

Frame 3:
0--------- (damage: 2)

Frame 4:
0------------ (damage: 1)

All this combination is activated on a single keypress.
Functionally, each frame is a separate laser beam.

In close combat, such laser can wipe out nine crew members (2+2+2+1). Very far, it can only kill a single crew member.

Is it possible to make something like this?
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Death 999
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Re: Looking for ship ideas

Post by Death 999 »

Yes, it is.
TSC
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Re: Looking for ship ideas

Post by TSC »

Well lets break it down and consider what sort of general idea's a new SC2 game could really use.

1. No more then one or two additional top tier ships. (It's clear from the way SC2 works that only the most advanced and powerful species get large top tier ships, so only the new big bad should have a ship class like that.) This means that out of all big Dreadnought/Marauder/Avatar type ships the only viable one would be the very best design, and only that one could be a good addition. All others should be rejected for balance sake.

2. Most ships should be midtier or lowtier. Especially midtier. A good idea would be to have counters to ships that have relatively few of those. As well as ships vulnerable to ships that don't have much use.


Now based on point 2, perhaps a good counter to Androsynth Blazer would be good. (They are at the moment a pretty damn good all round ship.) And maybe another ship that'd be vulnerable to the Umgah Drone (since I think only the Skiff seems to be particularly vulnerable to the Umgah)


Now one idea for a ship that'd be vulnerable to the Umgah (And also the Mycon, Ilwrath and other relatively underpowered ships.) would be to have a ship that's really slow. But how do you make them a credible threat without them being able to blow up an approaching Umgah?

Well maybe a slow ship that fires a limited amount of very powerful homing missiles that don't move especially fast, but ARE very relentless and keep tracking a long time and very accurately. Umgahs could avoid those by zipping in with their retro propulsion and attacking the missileship. (Whereas slow ships without good dodging abilities would be quite vulnerable to the missiles, but might still avoid them with a little luck.)


So lets say this idea.

Crew: 26 (Not to big, but a fairly sturdy ship)

Fuel: 20

Fuel Regeneration: Similar to the VUX (Slowish, maybe slightly slower)
Primary Weapon: Homing missile, the homing missile moves quite slowly, but homes pretty well, although not so well that it cannot be dodged (fast ships should have no real problem dodging it. But slow ships should find it very difficult.) The homing missile lasts a fairly long time (at least a bit longer then an earthling nuke and with smoother movement.) The homing missile is also fairly hard to destroy compared to the nuke (but not impossible) It costs 10 fuel to launch, so like the Mycon or Earthling two launches on a full tank. (Although if it needs to be set apart more from the Mycon and Earthling give them only one launch (10 fuel) or three (30 fuel) The missiles should do 8 damage. (They might not tag many targets, but what they tag they give quite a bloody lip.)

Speed: Very slow, slower then the Umgah

Turn Rate: Unimpressive, similar to the Chenjesu maybe

Secondary Weapon: Slowdown Mine. The ship can create mines which briefly slow an enemy ship down if hey hit them, making them far more vulnerable to the missile. These mines are like being limpeted by the VUX, but only have a temporary effect. A regular Pkunk would never be hit by a missile from this ship, but a Pkunk who hit one of these mines will get destroyed in a single missile shot, because they'd be easy to hit after. The mines fire from the back of the ship and should maybe cost 5 fuel, so the ship can make four on a full tank.

This ship would not be THAT powerful per se, and it'd be vulnerable to fast flankers, but it should be destroyable by a skilled Drone user as well.


It might take a bit of fiddling to get a ship like this just right programming wise I might imagine, tinkering with values, but it might be a neat addition.

-


A second idea is a ship that's a sort of energy parasite. It'd be a fragile fast ship, and it'd be trying to get a full fueltank to get off a powerful shot. There'd be a few approaches to this, here is ONE idea.

Crew: 10
Starting Fuel: 0
Maxfuel: 10
Speed: Fast
TurnRate: Fast (Both at least comparable to a Skiff, maybe slightly faster)

Primary Weapon: Matter energy converor. This costs no fuel to fire, and has a short range (maybe a little longer then a Zoq-Fot-Pik tongue, but not to much longer.) and it fires from the front of the ship. If it hits an enemy ship it saps a little of their fuel and gives this ship two fuelpoints of it's own for every fuelpoint drained. (Also makes this ship an annoyance for Utwig, who could use more annoyances.)

Once it has a full fueltank (or maybe a half full fueltank?) it can fire it's secondary weapon. Which is a powerful weapon similar to an Ur-Quan Fusion bolt at least. Which has a very long range, comes out fast, is hard to destroy, but doesn't home. (So if it misses you got to go drain more fuel and try again.)

A hit and run ship basically.

-

Finally as for an anti Androsynth weapon. A speed sapper would work. An energy bolt that if it hits sets the ships speed back to zero. They could of course just accelerate again, but since the comet doesn't do that manually it's speed could be set to zero in comet form and it'd be a sitting duck.

-


As for alien races... Well, each Star Control species has sort of it's own flavour, what you want to ensure is that new alien races don't share those flavours. So lets list the flavours of the species you can meet in SC2;


Arilou: Mysterious
Chenjesu: Wise, Mmrnmhrm: Where mentioned to be polite, Chmmr: Still somewhat unexplored!
Ilwrath: Violent Religious Zealots
Mycon: Bio-Constructs (might be malfunctioning?)
Shofixti: Kamikazes
Spathi: Cowardice
Syreen: Sex
Umgah: Sadistic Humour
Kzer-Za: Conquest
VUX: Bigotry
Yehat: Honour
Druuge: Dishonest Business, Slavery
Melnorme: Honest Business
Kohr-Ah: Genocide
Orz: Bizarre
Pkunk: Mystical New Age Hippies
Slylandro: Friendly Probes: Malfunctioning Robots
Supox: Relatively unexplored, but Symbionts.
Thraddash: Belligerence
Utwig: Depression
Zoq-Fot-Pik: Quirky Arguments with themselves.

You want to avoid all of those for new races or you'd risk just having a copy basically. So any new race idea should probably be checked against this list. And if a match is found examined very critically. And if that race is meant to be kept them play more on the differences between them and the SC2 race similar to them.
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Death 999
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Re: Looking for ship ideas

Post by Death 999 »

Your first idea - the long-ranged homing weapon ship - could also be balanced in favor of Umgah by letting the homing weapon be very hard to hit - perhaps it has some ECM so its image is displaced from its actual position slightly, while it has a very small hitbox. Or perhaps every pixel of the shot has to be hit before the weapon is destroyed. Umgah will have an easy time of this.

The problem I see with this ship is that both weapons are homing, and the ship itself is slow and turns slowly (EDITED TO ADD: point being, you hardly get to make any meaningful choices). Perhaps if it had a good acceleration up to a low max speed, that would be enough control.


Another anti-Androsynth weapon would be a ship that carries, say, 3 very closely orbiting repulsor mines - basically spikes extending from the hull. If one is hit by incoming fire or the enemy ship, it explodes for several damage on what it touched, and emits a wave which flings you and the enemy ship (if that is within the range of the wave) away. You can replenish the repulsor mines as a secondary. If the ship is decently fast, it would be hard for a synth to get in without taking a mine, which would then move you out of contact. Primary weapon could be just about anything.

The repulsor mines would be a useful defense against a variety of other weapons, so it's not a laser-guided nerf.

(edited to add italic text)
Last edited by Death 999 on Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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kingschosen
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Re: Looking for ship ideas

Post by kingschosen »

You know, a lot of these ideas where already suggested by me... ::)-smf
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oldlaptop
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Re: Looking for ship ideas

Post by oldlaptop »

TSC wrote: (Also makes this ship an annoyance for Utwig, who could use more annoyances.)
Utwig is balanced just fine the way it is. It has at least three hard counters, as well as several soft counters and pseudocounters.
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Death 999
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Re: Looking for ship ideas

Post by Death 999 »

kingschosen wrote:You know, a lot of these ideas where already suggested by me... ::)-smf
which?
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Shiver
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Re: Looking for ship ideas

Post by Shiver »

TSC: I like the way you think. You get an in-depth reply for that.

TSC wrote:Well lets break it down and consider what sort of general idea's a new SC2 game could really use.

1. No more then one or two additional top tier ships. (It's clear from the way SC2 works that only the most advanced and powerful species get large top tier ships, so only the new big bad should have a ship class like that.) This means that out of all big Dreadnought/Marauder/Avatar type ships the only viable one would be the very best design, and only that one could be a good addition. All others should be rejected for balance sake.
These are my thoughts exactly. There will almost definitely be only one new 30pt ship. Boss ships like the Sa-Matra (if we make any? I'd sure like to see some) probably won't be included in Super Melee.

TSC wrote:2. Most ships should be midtier or lowtier. Especially midtier. A good idea would be to have counters to ships that have relatively few of those. As well as ships vulnerable to ships that don't have much use.

Now based on point 2, perhaps a good counter to Androsynth Blazer would be good. (They are at the moment a pretty damn good all round ship.) And maybe another ship that'd be vulnerable to the Umgah Drone (since I think only the Skiff seems to be particularly vulnerable to the Umgah)

Now one idea for a ship that'd be vulnerable to the Umgah (And also the Mycon, Ilwrath and other relatively underpowered ships.) would be to have a ship that's really slow. But how do you make them a credible threat without them being able to blow up an approaching Umgah?

Well maybe a slow ship that fires a limited amount of very powerful homing missiles that don't move especially fast, but ARE very relentless and keep tracking a long time and very accurately. Umgahs could avoid those by zipping in with their retro propulsion and attacking the missileship. (Whereas slow ships without good dodging abilities would be quite vulnerable to the missiles, but might still avoid them with a little luck.)
Ah, net melee talk. I'm the go-to guy for that, yet even I'm not sure how important it is for p6014 ships to achieve perfect PvP balance. The campaign is a higher priority in my mind. Cedric wants p6014 PvP to be up to snuff, so I will try to remember PvP balance but I'm not making any promises.

Vanilla Androsynth is a pain in the ass. It already has one very cost-effective counter in Shofixti, yet the problems with Shofixti as an Androsynth counter are numerous. "One of each ship type" melee prevents players from massing Shofixti in bulk, and it takes multiple Shofixti to deal with Androsynth properly. "Duplicate ships" melee can lead to Shofixti mopping up Androsynth very effectively, but achieving this requires a player to guess their opponent's fleet composition blind. Finally, vanilla Shofixti is absurdly overpowered in itself. I don't see how one can design a counter for the 15pt Androsynth without the counter-ship itself being ridiculous in other match-ups just like Shofixti. This paragraph sums up my attitude toward the Star Control ship line-up; it simply isn't balanced as-is, and adding new ships to fill missing niches isn't viable.

TSC wrote:So lets say this idea.

Crew: 26 (Not to big, but a fairly sturdy ship)

Fuel: 20

Fuel Regeneration: Similar to the VUX (Slowish, maybe slightly slower)
Primary Weapon: Homing missile, the homing missile moves quite slowly, but homes pretty well, although not so well that it cannot be dodged (fast ships should have no real problem dodging it. But slow ships should find it very difficult.) The homing missile lasts a fairly long time (at least a bit longer then an earthling nuke and with smoother movement.) The homing missile is also fairly hard to destroy compared to the nuke (but not impossible) It costs 10 fuel to launch, so like the Mycon or Earthling two launches on a full tank. (Although if it needs to be set apart more from the Mycon and Earthling give them only one launch (10 fuel) or three (30 fuel) The missiles should do 8 damage. (They might not tag many targets, but what they tag they give quite a bloody lip.)

Speed: Very slow, slower then the Umgah

Turn Rate: Unimpressive, similar to the Chenjesu maybe

Secondary Weapon: Slowdown Mine. The ship can create mines which briefly slow an enemy ship down if hey hit them, making them far more vulnerable to the missile. These mines are like being limpeted by the VUX, but only have a temporary effect. A regular Pkunk would never be hit by a missile from this ship, but a Pkunk who hit one of these mines will get destroyed in a single missile shot, because they'd be easy to hit after. The mines fire from the back of the ship and should maybe cost 5 fuel, so the ship can make four on a full tank.

This ship would not be THAT powerful per se, and it'd be vulnerable to fast flankers, but it should be destroyable by a skilled Drone user as well.


It might take a bit of fiddling to get a ship like this just right programming wise I might imagine, tinkering with values, but it might be a neat addition.
Interesting, but I probably won't try anything like this. Both the Chmmr Explorer and Lurg lean heavily on a snare mechanic and I'd like to move away from snares.

TSC wrote:A second idea is a ship that's a sort of energy parasite. It'd be a fragile fast ship, and it'd be trying to get a full fueltank to get off a powerful shot. There'd be a few approaches to this, here is ONE idea.

Crew: 10
Starting Fuel: 0
Maxfuel: 10
Speed: Fast
TurnRate: Fast (Both at least comparable to a Skiff, maybe slightly faster)

Primary Weapon: Matter energy converor. This costs no fuel to fire, and has a short range (maybe a little longer then a Zoq-Fot-Pik tongue, but not to much longer.) and it fires from the front of the ship. If it hits an enemy ship it saps a little of their fuel and gives this ship two fuelpoints of it's own for every fuelpoint drained. (Also makes this ship an annoyance for Utwig, who could use more annoyances.)

Once it has a full fueltank (or maybe a half full fueltank?) it can fire it's secondary weapon. Which is a powerful weapon similar to an Ur-Quan Fusion bolt at least. Which has a very long range, comes out fast, is hard to destroy, but doesn't home. (So if it misses you got to go drain more fuel and try again.)

A hit and run ship basically.
I had an idea for a fast moving torpedo bomber that couldn't attack very often that was kind of like this. The idea was for it to be a flanking ship that's intimidating in general, yet poor against other flankers. An energy-stealing mechanic like the one you described would add a lot of personality to it. I agree with oldlaptop that Utwig does not need another counter ship, but that particular scheme would not be especially great against the fast-turning, continuously firing Utwig.

TSC wrote:Finally as for an anti Androsynth weapon. A speed sapper would work. An energy bolt that if it hits sets the ships speed back to zero. They could of course just accelerate again, but since the comet doesn't do that manually it's speed could be set to zero in comet form and it'd be a sitting duck.
Androsynth's blazer activates its propulsion every frame, actually. The ship would need to be paralyzed somehow, but that would drastically affect every ship, not just Androsynth.


I don't have much output regarding alien personalities as that's not really my jurisdiction nor my forte. I will say that some Star Control ships don't really relate to the species' personality that much. The Orz Nemesis for instance is shaped like a fish, but does not particularly convey the Orz's weirdness. What does a rotating mass driver and jetpack commandos have to do with a Lovecraftian monster from another universe?
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Cedric6014
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Re: Looking for ship ideas

Post by Cedric6014 »

Yeah we do want to somehow create ships that beat the overpowered ones and lose to the underpowered ones, if only to restore the balance of their point values. However, this will be very hard I suspect. SC2 introduced too many new fast ships (Pkunk, Utwig, Orz, Slylandro, Thraddash, Melnorme, Utwig, Supox, Chmmr). I think we may need to redress the balance and introduce a bunch of slow plodders.

BTW, I just replayed P6014 demo, and BOY the Lurg is tough to beat. Maybe a little too tough? Those five prawns chewed right through what little ships I could buy with 6,000 credits.

I think we may need to make it more catchable. I couldnt ge near the damn thing, even with a Chmmr tractor beam.
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