What Does Annoy You The Most In Super Meele?

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The Troglodyte
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Re: What Does Annoy You The Most In Super Meele?

Post by The Troglodyte » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:05 pm

Ok, I just discovered another one: The Ilwrath Avenger. This ship is simply not fast enough for me and I am absolutely terrible at using the cloaking device!

I was trying to figure out how to attack the Pkunk with an Ilwrath Avenger to try to understand their conflict and why the Pkunk are being decimated. It must be due to sheer numbers, because when I'm going up against the AI using an Avenger against a Fury, it is a tough ordeal indeed!

I've often abandoned the idea of cloaking entirely so I can at least see how to steer and also since the AI doesn't seem confused in the slightest by the cloaked ship's whearabouts. When I've tried using the cloaking device I found it necessary to decloak and determine my position and trajectory, and then when I attempted to use a gravity whip, I still ended up smashing into the planet!

I think there should be a special button you can tap to briefly see your ship without completely decloaking it.
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” ― Khan Noonien Singh

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Re: What Does Annoy You The Most In Super Meele?

Post by Quasispatial » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:09 am

The Troglodyte wrote:Ok, I just discovered another one: The Ilwrath Avenger. This ship is simply not fast enough for me and I am absolutely terrible at using the cloaking device!

I was trying to figure out how to attack the Pkunk with an Ilwrath Avenger to try to understand their conflict and why the Pkunk are being decimated. It must be due to sheer numbers, because when I'm going up against the AI using an Avenger against a Fury, it is a tough ordeal indeed!

I've often abandoned the idea of cloaking entirely so I can at least see how to steer and also since the AI doesn't seem confused in the slightest by the cloaked ship's whearabouts. When I've tried using the cloaking device I found it necessary to decloak and determine my position and trajectory, and then when I attempted to use a gravity whip, I still ended up smashing into the planet!

I think there should be a special button you can tap to briefly see your ship without completely decloaking it.
That button would be an exceedingly bad idea. Once you play splitscreen, what's to stop your enemy from also seeing that flicker? It simply doesn't work.

Instead, I would advise another approach for steering it, one which I myself find quite satisfactory for these matters. The camera point-of-reference technique. It is quite simple; you navigate based on three points.

One: The enemy ship's location. Unless you are fighting another Ilwrath (in which case good luck figuring out where the hell you are), you are going to be able to see where the enemy ship is.

Two: The camera moves its view based on the location of both ships. You can see where the enemy is moving, so if they are at the bottom-left, you must be in the top-right.

Three: Commands given, since you know what you are telling your ship to do.

Together, these three unify. You can figure out where you are based on the camera's relation to your enemy. How you are moving, and which way you are facing, you can figure out by the camera's movements and how it reacts when you fire up your thrusters. You aren't going to have a completely exact location, which means that a fair amount of training will be required before you, like me, are able to regularly pull off slingshots in cloaked mode, and even then accidents do happen from time to time. In general, however, this tactic serves its purpose, and allows for some fairly consistent performance when navigating. If you lose track, don't fear to briefly check your position by double-tapping the cloak button, allowing you to re-orientate yourself should your efforts leave you confused.
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Re: What Does Annoy You The Most In Super Meele?

Post by glory_device » Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:41 pm

I don't know why, but the only thing that pops into my mind regarding the Ilwrath cloaking and increasing uncertainty on your own position is my knowledge of mobile robotics, simultaneous location and mapping (SLAM) and Kalman Filters...Would be one fun work assignment!

If you were to implement a melee where people play one two different computers...I'd say that the Ilwrath pilot should have complete knowledge of where he is tho. In split screen...I agree that it doesn't really work!
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Re: What Does Annoy You The Most In Super Meele?

Post by Ogo3142 » Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:30 pm

glory_device wrote:If you were to implement a melee where people play one two different computers...I'd say that the Ilwrath pilot should have complete knowledge of where he is tho.
Shiver's Balance Mod does that:

http://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/User:Shiver/Balance_Mod

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Re: What Does Annoy You The Most In Super Meele?

Post by The Troglodyte » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:50 pm

Quasispatial wrote:
The Troglodyte wrote:I think there should be a special button you can tap to briefly see your ship without completely decloaking it.
That button would be an exceedingly bad idea. Once you play splitscreen, what's to stop your enemy from also seeing that flicker? It simply doesn't work.

Instead, I would advise another approach for steering it, one which I myself find quite satisfactory for these matters. The camera point-of-reference technique. It is quite simple; you navigate based on three points.

One: The enemy ship's location. Unless you are fighting another Ilwrath (in which case good luck figuring out where the hell you are), you are going to be able to see where the enemy ship is.

Two: The camera moves its view based on the location of both ships. You can see where the enemy is moving, so if they are at the bottom-left, you must be in the top-right.

Three: Commands given, since you know what you are telling your ship to do.

Together, these three unify. You can figure out where you are based on the camera's relation to your enemy. How you are moving, and which way you are facing, you can figure out by the camera's movements and how it reacts when you fire up your thrusters. You aren't going to have a completely exact location, which means that a fair amount of training will be required before you, like me, are able to regularly pull off slingshots in cloaked mode, and even then accidents do happen from time to time. In general, however, this tactic serves its purpose, and allows for some fairly consistent performance when navigating. If you lose track, don't fear to briefly check your position by double-tapping the cloak button, allowing you to re-orientate yourself should your efforts leave you confused.
You've obviously taken the time to grow accustomed to the inefficiencies of the cloak and have learned to skillfully fly a cloaked ship. I also appreciate the good combat pointers that I may have to practice alot more to get better as well, which I believe was your main point.

I don't mean to talk in circles, but I'd kind of still like to have that button though. I definitely see your point that a split-screen opponent could see my position during the brief flicker, but I don't feel that in itself completely rules out its potential.

Along with being able to stay cloaked and hidden from a Cruiser's nuke or Podship's homing plasmoid while I quickly check my bearings, it could also be used right before entering a planet's range to make a last second adjustment to maximize the gravity whip's effectiveness.

I suppose it's really a moot point since that button doesn't exist and most likely never will, so I guess I'll have to use the double-tap cloak technique you described.
Ogo3142 wrote:
glory_device wrote:If you were to implement a melee where people play one two different computers...I'd say that the Ilwrath pilot should have complete knowledge of where he is tho.
Shiver's Balance Mod does that:

http://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/User:Shiver/Balance_Mod
This makes perfect sense.
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” ― Khan Noonien Singh

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Re: What Does Annoy You The Most In Super Meele?

Post by Bleeding Star » Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:36 pm

Supox vs AI Chmmr. Urghhh. I know I can beat them, but do I have the fucking patience? (usually not)

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Re: What Does Annoy You The Most In Super Meele?

Post by Death 999 » Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:17 pm

On Ilwrath, it might be best if you practiced with a dummy enemy and no cloaking just to get used to the turn rate. That way you at least know which way you're facing.

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Re: What Does Annoy You The Most In Super Meele?

Post by The Troglodyte » Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:45 pm

Death 999 wrote:On Ilwrath, it might be best if you practiced with a dummy enemy and no cloaking just to get used to the turn rate. That way you at least know which way you're facing.
Yes, I’ve tried that and found it helpful. While turning with the ship cloaked, I found myself counting seconds in my head trying to predict which direction the ship would be facing. The Ilwrath’s turning rate is a bit sluggish.

I’ve also noticed that anticipating the Ilwrath’s relative position by acceleration is much easier since the Avenger reaches top speed very quickly as well as the opposite frame screen cues that Quasispatial mentioned.

I would say that its current top speed is its fatal flaw, but raise it just a hair and it would probably suddenly seem overpowered.
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” ― Khan Noonien Singh

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Re: What Does Annoy You The Most In Super Meele?

Post by palmpet » Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:05 pm

VUX Intruder... one time I was a vux intruder up against a computer mycon the match wouldn't end and I was trying to die!
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Re: What Does Annoy You The Most In Super Meele?

Post by oldlaptop » Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:17 am

The Troglodyte wrote:Ok, I just discovered another one: The Ilwrath Avenger. This ship is simply not fast enough for me and I am absolutely terrible at using the cloaking device!
The speed problem is quite simple to solve: use the planet! Ilwrath is massive enough that it gets an impressive boost from a gravity whip, and that tactic is pretty universal in netmelee. The only problem is that you can't really use the cloak in close proximity to the planet (in vanilla, anyway). On top of that, humans don't find it hard to know where you are anyway (as Quasipatial explained in such detail), after some practice. It still does one very important thing for you: it severely impairs the effectiveness of homing weapons. (It also masks your facing direction from your opponent, but that's not too helpful in vanilla... since it does the same thing to you.)
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