SC2's Greatest Mysteries (spoilers)

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Mathius
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Re: SC2's Greatest Mysteries (spoilers)

Post by Mathius » Mon May 06, 2013 3:52 am

Lobsterman wrote:
Mathius wrote:This is my first post here. It's nice to be among fellow SC2 lovers. :)

The biggest and most frustrating mystery to me are the Orz. Paul and Fred have eluded that the Orz are part of the extra-dimensional beings that the Arilou have been trying to protect us from. That they are part of Them. If this is so, and the Orz are evil, then why do the Arilou fail to keep us from meeting them? Why are the Arilou not going bat-shit crazy and trying to "push" the Orz back where they came from? If the Orz are a projection of something far more sinister than anything in our space and time why are the Arilou not doing anything about it?
Let me first say welcome! Cool to see another sc2 fan find/post on this forum :D
Personally I never get tired of discussing lore so I'll bite for a first reply.

What you ask imo, is a pretty good question, personally I haven't seen it posed before. Could it be possible that the Arilou, knowing our curious personality as a species, abstained from trying to prevent contact with the Orz alltogether, in fear that it would just drive us to obsessively seek them out? I mean it's not like we know for sure that even the Arilou is completely benevolent, given how vague they are.

I also get the feeling that the Arilou aren't THAT concerned about superficial communication with the entity known to us as the Orz, simply because they have spent so much time altering our *smell* presumably to avoid full detection by that entity. I also feel that if the entity known as Orz, or it's truespace *fingers* if you will, isn't fully able to *smell* races just from interacting with them, otherwise I get the feeling that the Spathi and surrounding races would fairly quickly have gotten wiped out. Iirc there are no aliens ingame that talks about encountering the Orz, but surely the Spathi and VUX at least (and probably the Ur-Quan) would encounter them through routine patrols, presumably without immediately catastrophic results.

Just my take on the whole thing.

Again, cool to see a new guy here! Post wise I am pretty new myself.
This seems plausible. I don't feel quite as frustrated now. :)

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Re: SC2's Greatest Mysteries (spoilers)

Post by Draxas » Mon May 06, 2013 6:08 pm

Mathius wrote:If this is so, and the Orz are evil, then why do the Arilou fail to keep us from meeting them? Why are the Arilou not going bat-shit crazy and trying to "push" the Orz back where they came from? If the Orz are a projection of something far more sinister than anything in our space and time why are the Arilou not doing anything about it?
Reading this got me thinking, mostly because in all the years, I've never seen this exact question before, and it's a good one. My take is this: the Arilou actually do want us to meet and interact with the Orz.

The Arilou have spent millennia studying and altering various aspects of humanity, presumably in preparation for an encounter just like this one. It leads me to believe that the Arilou are less benevolent caretakers, and more curious scientists, using humans as a grand experiment to see if they can actually mask *smells* from the Orz. Presumably the other races they have interacted with in this way were also used as experiments in the same vein, but the results weren't as promising so they were abandoned. We're like the monkeys in the Arilou's animal testing lab, and our meeting with the Orz is the big proof-of-concept test for their theories. Being that they perceive *time* differently as well, they almost certainly know that this is coming, and thus can't prevent this meeting, only perform their alterations before the big test and then see if it all pans out.

Then why warn us about it at all? After all, by exposing us to their bias, they are potentially altering the eventual results, right? Well, humans have been their pet project for so long that they've gotten attached to us, and despite the fact that it's bad science, they want to have their test go as well as possible without directly intervening. Otherwise, all that effort is wasted, and they have to start over with a new method and set of test subjects, which not only set their progress way back, but the subject they got attached to is gone as well. It's analagous to the animal lab tech that doesn't want to put down their subjects at the end of the experiment because they've been taking care of them for so long.
Tormuse wrote:It was pretty stupid of the Kzer-Za to agree to the whole Doctrinal Conflict thing, because no matter who wins, the Kohr-Ah win. My understanding is that after the current Doctrinal Conflict ends, both sides will continue their migration around the galaxy, carrying out their agendas, until they meet again to have another Doctrinal Conflict. Presumably, this means that both sides will be traveling through space that the other had just traveled through.

Basically, the Kzer-Za will continue their mission to enslave everyone, traveling through space where everyone has already been destroyed by the Kohr-Ah, and the Kohr-Ah will continue their mission to destroy everyone where everyone has been enslaved by the Kzer-Za. The Kohr-Ah will even have the advantage that everyone has already been subdued and imprisoned for easy destruction!
As for this, this is explained (fairly subtly) in-game. The second doctrinal conflict was supposed to also be the final doctrinal conflict. The only reason that the Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah traversed the galaxy in opposite directions was becase the Kzer-Za did not feel that they had proven the strength of their doctrine through strength of arms fairly, since they used the Sa-Matra to subdue the Kohr-Ah in the end. The second doctrinal conflict was to take place after a rebuilding phase, giving both subraces a chance to perfect their methods and rebuild their forces using half the galaxy to keep their distance. Once they met again, they were supposed to have their truly final doctrinal conflict, battling against one another in ritual combat without the benefits of any outside alien intervention, whether it be artifacts of a dead race or living thralls. Eventually, when one subrace submitted to the other in defeat, the winner's doctrine would be acknowledged as superior and the one true Path of Now and Forever for all Ur-Quan, and the loser would stand aside and let the winner have their way with whatever was left of the galaxy. You can actually see this in action once the Kohr-Ah begin their death march if you speak with the Kzer-Za. There was never going to be a third doctrinal conflict.

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Re: SC2's Greatest Mysteries (spoilers)

Post by Death 999 » Mon May 06, 2013 6:52 pm

Draxas wrote:Reading this got me thinking, mostly because in all the years, I've never seen this exact question before, and it's a good one.
Agreed. Good point, Mathius.
Draxas wrote:Then why warn us about it at all? After all, by exposing us to their bias, they are potentially altering the eventual results, right?
Depends. If their test was only to protect against certain kinds of contact, they would need to warn us off of other kinds of contact. Or what they said could be a lure that would get us to stress-test their method in the first place.

Or we could be a weapon. They need us to cooperate with the Orz to get into position, but they don't want us to trust them.

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Re: SC2's Greatest Mysteries (spoilers)

Post by Tsing » Tue May 07, 2013 6:43 pm

Draxas wrote:There was never going to be a third doctrinal conflict.
Not sure about that, if you talk to the Ur-Quan after they lose the Doctrinal War they do suggest the opposite.
The Ur-Quan Kzer-Za wrote: While the Kohr-Ah move through space, killing your neighboring species
we shall remain here, guarding the trophy... the Sa-Matra.
When the Kohr-Ah are done with their dark business
they will take possession of the Sa-Matra, and then we will part ways
traversing the galaxy in opposite directions, fulfilling our doctrines
and preparing for our next Doctrinal War.
You WILL be annigilated... I mean annihigated.. damn!

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Re: SC2's Greatest Mysteries (spoilers)

Post by Zarnium » Tue May 07, 2013 11:53 pm

All this talk about the Orz has gotten me thinking... I always ally with the Orz without a second thought because I know it's the proper way to complete the game, but in reality, would you really trust the Orz? They obviously played some part in the destruction of the Androsynth, and it's impossible to clearly communicate with them. Frankly, I wouldn't want them anywhere near my starbase.

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Mathius
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Re: SC2's Greatest Mysteries (spoilers)

Post by Mathius » Wed May 08, 2013 1:33 am

Draxas wrote:
Mathius wrote:If this is so, and the Orz are evil, then why do the Arilou fail to keep us from meeting them? Why are the Arilou not going bat-shit crazy and trying to "push" the Orz back where they came from? If the Orz are a projection of something far more sinister than anything in our space and time why are the Arilou not doing anything about it?
Reading this got me thinking, mostly because in all the years, I've never seen this exact question before, and it's a good one. My take is this: the Arilou actually do want us to meet and interact with the Orz.

The Arilou have spent millennia studying and altering various aspects of humanity, presumably in preparation for an encounter just like this one. It leads me to believe that the Arilou are less benevolent caretakers, and more curious scientists, using humans as a grand experiment to see if they can actually mask *smells* from the Orz. Presumably the other races they have interacted with in this way were also used as experiments in the same vein, but the results weren't as promising so they were abandoned. We're like the monkeys in the Arilou's animal testing lab, and our meeting with the Orz is the big proof-of-concept test for their theories. Being that they perceive *time* differently as well, they almost certainly know that this is coming, and thus can't prevent this meeting, only perform their alterations before the big test and then see if it all pans out.

Then why warn us about it at all? After all, by exposing us to their bias, they are potentially altering the eventual results, right? Well, humans have been their pet project for so long that they've gotten attached to us, and despite the fact that it's bad science, they want to have their test go as well as possible without directly intervening. Otherwise, all that effort is wasted, and they have to start over with a new method and set of test subjects, which not only set their progress way back, but the subject they got attached to is gone as well. It's analagous to the animal lab tech that doesn't want to put down their subjects at the end of the experiment because they've been taking care of them for so long.
This makes huge amounts of sense.
Zarnium wrote:All this talk about the Orz has gotten me thinking... I always ally with the Orz without a second thought because I know it's the proper way to complete the game, but in reality, would you really trust the Orz? They obviously played some part in the destruction of the Androsynth, and it's impossible to clearly communicate with them. Frankly, I wouldn't want them anywhere near my starbase.
I feel this way every time I play through the game. But due to the structure of the game I am compelled to ally with them.

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Re: SC2's Greatest Mysteries (spoilers)

Post by Zarnium » Wed May 08, 2013 4:07 pm

Is it even possible to get the Taalo shield if you don't ally with them? I don't remember.

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Re: SC2's Greatest Mysteries (spoilers)

Post by Draxas » Wed May 08, 2013 4:42 pm

There is never a need to ally with the Orz. If you don't, or break your alliance by being too persistent about the Androsynth, you can still get the Taalo shield. There's just a fairly large fleet of Orz in your way (I think 14 ships).

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Re: SC2's Greatest Mysteries (spoilers)

Post by glory_device » Wed May 08, 2013 10:54 pm

I don't know why, but I always find it fun to annoy the crap out of the orz! :lol: especially with their voice over...I find them really odd for a ''potential treat to the universe''.

I remember when they arrive at the star base and scare the crap out of commander Hayes with space marine!
''I swiftly matured into a fine example of my species and with my parents' assistance, achieved independence.
Specifically, they pried me from the doorjamb, and rolled me into the street.'' -Fwiffo

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Re: SC2's Greatest Mysteries (spoilers)

Post by Zeracles » Sun May 12, 2013 8:39 am

Good point by Tsing, looks like supremacy of doctrine remains eternally contested. Which prompts an investigation of what they are really fighting for.
Tormuse wrote:It was pretty stupid of the Kzer-Za to agree to the whole Doctrinal Conflict thing, because no matter who wins, the Kohr-Ah win. My understanding is that after the current Doctrinal Conflict ends, both sides will continue their migration around the galaxy, carrying out their agendas, until they meet again to have another Doctrinal Conflict. Presumably, this means that both sides will be traveling through space that the other had just traveled through.

Basically, the Kzer-Za will continue their mission to enslave everyone, traveling through space where everyone has already been destroyed by the Kohr-Ah, and the Kohr-Ah will continue their mission to destroy everyone where everyone has been enslaved by the Kzer-Za. The Kohr-Ah will even have the advantage that everyone has already been subdued and imprisoned for easy destruction!
Yes, that would be silly. But it probably isn't like that. During the doctrinal conflict the Kzer-Za claim to the Captain that the Kohr-Ah will only be unleashed upon humanity and other species in Kzer-Za-pacified territory if the Kohr-Ah are victorious. This implies that if the Kzer-Za win, in the next doctrinal conflict, both Ur-Quan would actually go back the way they came. This interpretation is also consistent with Tsing's quotation of the Kzer-Za.

So the Ur-Quans are really fighting to determine whether they change direction in the next rebuilding phase. If the Kohr-Ah win there is no change and everyone in the galaxy dies, which is what they want. But if the Kzer-Za win there is a change of direction: everyone who can be enslaved is enslaved, which is what they want, with the Kohr-Ah Death March confined to half the galaxy.

I guess the other thing they're fighting for is the Sa-Matra. They recognise a small probability that one of them will be overcome by conventional means, and if the Sa-Matra is more likely to be in the hands of the subspecies with the superior doctrine, the subspecies with the superior doctrine is more likely to survive.
oldlaptop wrote:I wonder if the Arilou are simply incapable of real action against the Orz during the events of SC2? They must have taken serious losses in the Slave War.
Although there is a line in their dialogue that suggests so, that might just be a convenient excuse. I think it is difficult to say what impact participation in the Slave War really had on them. Their true strength may be hidden in places we cannot see, and their most important weapons aren't likely to be conventional ones.
Twinkle twinkle Paul and Fred (more)

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