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 Post subject: Re: The Chmmr Avatar
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:39 pm 
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Slylandro gasbags
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“the complete synthetic hybridization of the Chenjesu and the mmrnmhrm species… will require approximately thirty-five of your earth years… this extended duration is necessary because our synthesis mechanisms… are dependent exclusively on the light of our sun for energy.” – Chmmr

14 Chmmr Avatars (14 x 30 = 420 pts.)
VS.
14 Supox Blade
(14 x 16 = 224 pts.)


RESULTS: Chmmr wins with all 14 Avatars remaining!
Approximate battle time: 4 minutes

ANALYSIS: I’m just guessing here, but perhaps the Supox could have benefitted from using the Sun Device on themselves, since… well, you know… because they’re plants and all. Anyway, the fact that the Avatar only lost 3 total crew members should give you an indication of how this battle went down. I learned from Bleeding Star and other members that it is indeed possible to take down an Avatar with a Blade (see the discussion for yourself here), but it requires a lot of patience, persistence and time, since it’s necessary to continually use a full battery volley to overtax the ZapSat’s laser defenses before you can even start thinking about inflicting damage on the Avatar ship itself. But, of course, this is the computer we’re talking about, so it flew all over the place in its usual fashion, with all of their attacks rendered useless, so it wasn’t too long before the pull of the beam brought them within striking distance, and it was finely chopped vegetables from there. There was even one time that a Supox vessel pulled away from the Avatar on the opposite side of the planet to temporary safety, only to get tugged into its gravity by the tractor beam and became an exploding salad burning up in the atmosphere.
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_________________
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” ― Khan Noonien Singh


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 Post subject: Re: The Chmmr Avatar
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:10 pm 
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ZFP Peacekeeper
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I can do that vs AI chmmr, but can humans do better as Chmmr? Without the kiting, it might not be as advantageous a shot for getting the bursts in.

I'd think a human chmmr player can do a gravity whip, which would ruin the Supox's usual strategy. On the other hand, that might not actually be useful in terms of doing damage.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chmmr Avatar
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:58 pm 
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Slylandro gasbags
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Death 999 wrote:
I can do that vs AI chmmr, but can humans do better as Chmmr? Without the kiting, it might not be as advantageous a shot for getting the bursts in.

I'd think a human chmmr player can do a gravity whip, which would ruin the Supox's usual strategy. On the other hand, that might not actually be useful in terms of doing damage.

To tell you the truth, the Chmmr Avatar seems to be one of the few vessels that the computer almost comes close to emulating a human pilot’s tendencies, or at least a poor pilot’s tendencies. I’m not saying it’s necessarily close to imitation by any means, but it can sometimes give that outward appearance, and I think the main reason for this is because of the straightforward nature built into the framework of its operations. The differences would obviously become more apparent in a Chmmr-Supox PvP match-up, since a human will quickly see the need to mix things up to keep the Blade on its toes, lest things turn into a boring stalemate.

Regarding the overall strategy flying-wise and general combat, it’s about the same for each party: both the AI and human will stalk their prey, the ZapSats’ firing is involuntary and both will fire the main laser when the target is in range (with possibly a slight edge to the computer’s accuracy), so the big exception would be the aforementioned gravity whip, which a human will use to their advantage while the AI’s response is merely reactionary. And of course a human pilot will also know when it’s an appropriate time to choose not to chase.

The most noticeable difference would then be the usage of the tractor beam. I’ve observed that the AI flies the Avatar towards the target in a relentless, lurching manner, much like a mindless zombie pursuing their next victim, but it only tugs at them with the tractor beam when it meets their requirements for usage, such as from a distance or as the targeted ship moves away from them, whereas a human will use the tractor beam in a more intuitive manner, far less robotic, and with other influences regarding, such as when a planet that falls between the two ships, or a person may also hammer down on the beam button if another situation calls for it, using all available data to their advantage, like pulling in a vessel depending on what direction it’s facing or how fast it’s travelling, plus I could imagine somebody using the beam in an unpredictable, intermittent pattern to throw off their opponent’s movements; all of which are things the computer doesn’t ever seem to take into account.

_________________
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” ― Khan Noonien Singh


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 Post subject: Re: The Chmmr Avatar
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:07 am 
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Arilou wiseguy
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Death 999 wrote:
I can do that vs AI chmmr, but can humans do better as Chmmr?

YES. Supox is basically unusable against player Chmmr unless it's missing 2-3 satellites. It's Orz that can crack a player-controlled Chmmr by kiting them, and the better the Chmmr is, the worse that match-up gets for Orz.


The Troglodyte wrote:
[...]

The most noticeable difference would then be the usage of the tractor beam [...]

I've seen a lot of players not use the tractor beam well at all, and disagree with this statement. It's the endless single-minded pursuit that separates players from cyborg Chmmr the most, even though Chmmr is better equipped to take advantage of that approach than most (if not all other) ships. No one can survive Druuge vs Chmmr or even one of those aforementioned kiting match-ups without maneuvering more cautiously.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chmmr Avatar
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:09 pm 
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Slylandro gasbags
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Shiver wrote:
The Troglodyte wrote:

[...]

The most noticeable difference would then be the usage of the tractor beam [...]

I've seen a lot of players not use the tractor beam well at all, and disagree with this statement.

You have a point. I’ve had a little practice using the tractor beam myself, so I know how I’d use it versus another ship, depending of course on the opposition’s ship choice, but I haven’t had the opportunity to see many others use it, so no doubt there may be many who use it inadequately, especially if they’re unfamiliar with using the tractor beam strategically, or if they get skittish from its incredible power drain issue.

Shiver wrote:
It's the endless single-minded pursuit that separates players from cyborg Chmmr the most, even though Chmmr is better equipped to take advantage of that approach than most (if not all other) ships.

As for the computer’s approach to movement and pursuit, I think that overall there is likely going to be a big difference in how a human user flies the Avatar as compared with the computer, which flies the ship with the tactics of a 5-year old, and the comparison between all of the different match-ups would undoubtedly support your position. However, in the Chmmr-Supox match-up specifically, it suits the Avatar’s position to go on ahead and directly engage the Blade, so there’s no need for dramatic movement deviation other than resolute straightforwardness, and correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that the second part of your statement concurs with this analysis.

_________________
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” ― Khan Noonien Singh


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 Post subject: Re: The Chmmr Avatar
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:33 am 
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Arilou wiseguy
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The Troglodyte wrote:
However, in the Chmmr-Supox match-up specifically, it suits the Avatar’s position to go on ahead and directly engage the Blade, so there’s no need for dramatic movement deviation other than resolute straightforwardness, and correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that the second part of your statement concurs with this analysis.

Correction, then. If you want to catch a ship that's trying to kite your Chmmr, you need to change trajectories a lot. It's been a while, but I don't think Supox can even scratch a zap sat without Chmmr walking right after them in a straight line.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chmmr Avatar
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:09 am 
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Wise Pkunk

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:01 pm
Posts: 336
It really helps if they do.
Against the AI Chmmr, the Supox is my favourite weapon.


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 Post subject: Re: The Chmmr Avatar
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:46 pm 
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Slylandro gasbags
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(Uh… I’m not 100% positive, but by comparing dialogue I’ve received from the Melnorme, I believe this bit of dialogue is referring to the Utwig, so I’m optimistically hoping that the following Chmmr quote is appropriate…)

“Where can I find the super-weapon you described?” – Captain Zelnick

“THERE ARE RUMORS OF SUCH A DEVICE, A PRECURSOR PLANETEERING TOOL TO BE FOUND SOMEWHERE FAR TOWARDS THE CORE IN THE POSSESSION OF A NON-HOSTILE ALIEN RACE. WE CANNOT PROVIDE ANY MORE INFORMATION AT THIS TIME.” – Chmmr

14 Chmmr Avatars (14 x 30 = 420 pts.)
VS.
14 Utwig Juggers
(14 x 22 = 308 pts.)


RESULTS: Utwig wins with 8 Juggers remaining!!
Approximate battle time: 10 minutes

ANALYSIS: Once again, Quasi’s critique nails it right on the head, so I’ll sprinkle in some of those analyses as we go along, since it seems rather fitting:

Quasispatial wrote:
The Jugger is perhaps the most notorious of the three vulnerabilities. Its absorptive shield in combination with the Avatar's ZapSats and the immense power of its primary weapon ensures that the Jugger can, if it so wishes, reliably remain invincible indefinitely.

The computer handled the Jugger’s shield function very effectively, and even when it was under heavy fire from a relentless pelting of ZapSat laser fire as well as the terawatt cannon it knew better than to drop its shields for even a millisecond while it was nose-to-nose against the Avatar.

Quasispatial wrote:
As such, the effectiveness of the Avatar against the Jugger is ultimately determined by the skill of the Jugger rather than the Avatar's own pilot.

Well, we all know that you can basically throw out the word ‘skill’ when it comes to AI vs. AI, but the Jugger at the very least demonstrated some level of awareness, and the wherewithal to fire its Widespread Guns when it wasn’t under heavy duress. In its own way, the computer acknowledged that the lumbering brute was going to pursue to a fault, and it responded by making the most of the situation, even if that meant bouncing off of the Avatar’s nose and then blasting away when the ricochet put it outside of their weapons’ range.

Quasispatial wrote:
For this reason, one should always avoid using their Avatar against an enemy Jugger, simply because it is truly wasted potential. A skilled Jugger may even emerge from the confrontation unscathed.

Even though a decent human player would’ve done much, much better, it’s plain to see from comparing both arsenals offensive and defensive that the Jugger proves to spell trouble for just about any Avatar.

Oh, by the way!… I spoke earlier on ricochets, but there was one moment where the two ships wedged their noses into each other until they were “stuck” to each other for a few seconds, when suddenly this somehow caused a “super ricochet” effect, in which both ships were sent hurtling in opposite directions at such astronomical speeds that the screen was flipping over and over as they flew by each other! I don’t even know why all that happened! Could it be something programmed into the game mechanics to prevent two ships from getting stuck to each other when parts of their ships fit into the other, causing a wedge? Anyhow, to add to the oddity, neither ship knew what to do about it, and they seemed reluctant to use thrusters, tractor beam, or anything else to regather their bearings. This amazingly went on for several more minutes until a combination of a few asteroids and the planet slowed things back down to normal. Really though, it’s little things like that that make these experiments worthwhile to me.
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_________________
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” ― Khan Noonien Singh


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 Post subject: Re: The Chmmr Avatar
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:22 pm 
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Wise Pkunk

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:01 pm
Posts: 336
I don't know the reason/mechanics behind the described super-ricochet, but I do remember them frommy SC2 times... BumpingTool even did so once, and I felt the mass difference of the Precursor Service Vehicle compared to the rather light opponent (spoiler, won't name them yet).
I was comparatively slow, while the other flipped all over the screen....


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 Post subject: Re: The Chmmr Avatar
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:29 pm 
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Slylandro gasbags
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Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:16 pm
Posts: 1265
Location: Dallas, TX
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“You are causing us sorrow, human, sorrow indeed, because now we must obey the commands of our Queen and destroy you.” – Yehat, Starship Clans

14 Chmmr Avatars (14 x 30 = 420 pts.)
VS.
14 Yehat Terminators
(14 x 23 = 322 pts.)


RESULTS: Chmmr wins with 10 remaining Avatars!
Approximate battle time: 5 minutes

ANALYSIS: The Yehat were put between a rock and a hard place, since they couldn’t constantly keep their shields in place, so the ZapSats constant barrage brought quick damage anytime the shields fell -- even for a moment, and the Chmmr seemed as if they could time and commence the laser fire to the very nanosecond to sap quickly away any of the remaining life onboard, and their tractor kept them in place as the onslaught continued, and when they were done, they’d simply use the tractor beam again to bring the next Terminator helplessly in start the death cycle all over. :?: Question: Is there any tactic to give the Yehat a chance against the combination of the Avatar’s tractor beam, laser and ZapSats?
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_________________
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” ― Khan Noonien Singh


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