Star Control Discussion Board

All About Star Control
It is currently Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:07 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 74 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: The Chmmr Avatar
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:07 pm 
Offline
Slylandro gasbags
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:16 pm
Posts: 1284
Location: Dallas, TX
What about the Chmmr Avatar? What do you think about this ship? I mean, come on!… Is it really any good? What about the Chmmr race? Is it just me or are they a little monotone? They basically look like a big chunk of quartz, so how do they get around?

I’ve recently obtained access to this ship while I’m playing the game for the first time through, so keep that in mind (-spoilers), but I’d welcome anybody’s comments on using the Avatar in Star Control 2, especially in regards to battle strategy, whether in the main story or for SuperMelee.

Speaking of which, do you include the Avatar in your fleet setup when playing SuperMelee? When and how do you like to use it? In other words, do you like to bring it in early or save it for later, or perhaps for a particular match-up? Why? What ships does it have a clear advantage over? Disadvantages?

also

What about the composition of the ship itself? That is to say, when comparing the technologies of the Chenjesu Broodhome and the Mmrnmhrm X-Form (formerly the Transformer, but perhaps the “robots in disguise” guys tapped them on the shoulder and reminded them about copyright infringement) what conclusions can we draw or speculate from their combined species that created the Avatar design?

also (<-- I like mimicking the way Commander Hayes separates discussion items)

:!: And here comes the bonus surprise question that nobody could’ve ever predicted! How do you think 14 computer-controlled Chmmr Avatars would do put up against 14 computer-controlled opposing fleets? Maybe if we’re all lucky enough, we’ll get the chance to find out those answers!

_________________
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” ― Khan Noonien Singh


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Chmmr Avatar
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:43 pm 
Offline
Ilwrath spawn

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:01 pm
Posts: 361
the Chmmr Avatar is a very easy to use ship. Even for beginners and those who wish to play the adventure game without training hours in th simulators to become proficient with the available ships.
Intentional,ly easy to use and strong weapons, as you'll find out.
But it not a very good ship, designwise. IMHO.

But it compares above average against most enemies.

The rest I would contribute to the discussion (why this ship, what it is good for, and about the hybrid race) falls under the "mind the spoilers" clause, so you'll have to wait for further discussion.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Chmmr Avatar
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:01 pm 
Offline
Yehat Revolutionist
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:10 am
Posts: 623
Location: Sweden
The Troglodyte wrote:
They basically look like a big chunk of quartz, so how do they get around?

The Chenjesu used hover platforms, I think. Presumably the Chmmr utilize something similar. Hard to know for certain without asking them. I don't think they ever mention it in the game, and it's pre-war knowledge too, so I wouldn't call this tidbit spoilers.


Anyway, the Chmmr Avatar is a powerful vessel which, as the Chmmr no doubt told you, can defeat any ship in space "in competent hands" (with one notable exception). Here's an outline:

Chmmr Avatar
Class: HCC (Heavy, Close Combat).
Primary Armament: TerraWatt Lazer
Secondary Armament: Tractor Beam

Overview: The Avatar is a powerful vessel capable of defeating most other vessels, assuming that the pilot knows how to operate it. Its TerraWatt Lazer is extremely lethal at close range, and its Tractor Beam allows it to enforce control over its foe's movements. It is generally considered a powerful and cost-effective ship.

Preferred targets: Most ships, really. The Skiff, Fury and Cruiser are particularly notable, but few ships have the capability to stand up against the power of an Avatar for long. Sure, the AI can be exploited, but who ever called the AI "competent", anyway? The Avatar is especially effective against ships which rely on dodging, most notably being a notorious hard counter to the Arilou Skiff as well as ships like the Fury. This makes it an excellent choice for counteracting ships that are too fast to be reliably shot down. However, due to its primary weapon's damage output and its great health reserve, it is also a very capable fighter when battling other Heavy vessels, and any enemy with low fire penetration, such as the Cruiser, will likewise struggle to fight back effectively. All in all, a strong ship with few direct weaknesses.

Vulnerabilities: The Avatar has four notable vulnerabilities: the Scout, the Marauder, the Mauler and the Jugger.
The Scout's glory device can reliably knock out several ZapSats, and its low mass prohibits the use of the Avatar's tractor beam as, after all, the Scout wants to be as close to the Avatar as possible when it goes off, and the tractor beam is too strong to be safe to use. An Avatar may have enough health to withstand the power of a glory device, but several detonations will eventually wear it down, and the low range on its weapon prevents it from fighting back from a safe distance.
The Marauder is very much an equal to the Avatar in terms of sheer combative strength. Although the Avatar possesses a slight edge in maneuverability, the Marauder's F.R.I.E.D. system is very effective against the Avatar's ZapSats, which compensates for the speed advantage. To simplify things, the Avatar and the Marauder are remarkably even in terms of power, being a very well-known matchup with no pre-determinable victor. This makes the Marauder a credible threat.
The Mauler's primary weapon recoil makes it dangerous, as it can counteract the Avatar's tractor beam, whilst dishing out significant damage using its own long-range weaponry. All in all, the Mauler is not a fun ship to face for an Avatar.
The Jugger is perhaps the most notorious of the three vulnerabilities. Its absorptive shield in combination with the Avatar's ZapSats and the immense power of its primary weapon ensures that the Jugger can, if it so wishes, reliably remain invincible indefinitely. As such, the effectiveness of the Avatar against the Jugger is ultimately determined by the skill of the Jugger rather than the Avatar's own pilot. For this reason, one should always avoid using their Avatar against an enemy Jugger, simply because it is truly wasted potential. A skilled Jugger may even emerge from the confrontation unscathed.

Usage: The Avatar's fundamental modus operandi is very simple: close the distance, and destroy the enemy with the primary weapon. Although it is also possible to use the tractor beam to redirect enemy ships into planets or asteroids, this will not finish off an enemy, and so the Avatar more or less has to close the distance in order to win. Against fast-moving targets, the general method of operation is to either stay still, if the enemy's range is short (chasing them is more likely to hurt you with unexpected planets than to give you any real gain), or attempt to intersect their path if their range is longer. Against slower targets, the Avatar may even have the advantage in maneuverability, and would thus (in combination with the tractor beam) be able to close the distance. Experienced pilots may also elect to perform rudimentary dodging, and maneuvering to be just barely within range rather than going for a head-on collision, aiming for strafing runs in an attempt to compensate for the power-hungry nature of the primary laser weapon.


As for any conclusions about the Chmmr... probably better to wait with those until after your playthrough, wouldn't you think?

_________________
"Sentient life. We are the Ur-Quan. Independence is intolerable. Blah, blah, blah." - the Spathi High Council, Star Control II.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Chmmr Avatar
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:47 am 
Offline
Atum-ta the Sixth
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:09 am
Posts: 1280
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
There is one more notable hard counter to the Avatar in addition to the ones mentioned above. The Androsynth Guardian is notorious for being able to take them down reliably despite the fact that it costs half as many points. Because of the body design of the Avatar, there are several corners for the Guardian to wedge itself into while in blazer form, which will destroy the Avatar much faster than the zapsats can whittle down the Guardian's crew. The typical target is the front side of the wings, right where they meet the body. Note that the Guardian will take hefty damage from the exchange, but again, this is a ship valued in the teens versus the Avatar's 30 point price tag, so the tradeoff is well worth it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Chmmr Avatar
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:32 am 
Offline
Arilou wiseguy
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:03 am
Posts: 199
Draxas wrote:
There is one more notable hard counter to the Avatar in addition to the ones mentioned above. The Androsynth Guardian is notorious for being able to take them down reliably despite the fact that it costs half as many points. Because of the body design of the Avatar, there are several corners for the Guardian to wedge itself into while in blazer form, which will destroy the Avatar much faster than the zapsats can whittle down the Guardian's crew. The typical target is the front side of the wings, right where they meet the body. Note that the Guardian will take hefty damage from the exchange, but again, this is a ship valued in the teens versus the Avatar's 30 point price tag, so the tradeoff is well worth it.

That's not a hard counter. Elvish Pillager broke that tactic (and I mean broke it in half) as Chmmr. A decade ago, the two of us played both sides of the match-up thoroughly until the one-sidedness of it became obvious. The key is to keep Chmmr moving away from Androsynth while they're in their normal form, then spin back around to shoot at them when they blazer charge at you. Wedging the blazer between the wing and bow of the Avatar is only viable when the Avatar is either sitting still or moving towards Androsynth, so don't do that. And "moving away" from Androsynth is in fact very easy for Chmmr because they don't need to travel directly opposite of Androsynth to have a positional advantage; even lateral movement serves the same purpose when you're far enough away. If Androsynth can somehow start their charge right next to Chmmr (rare, but does happen), there's some danger. The response to that is keep the Chmmr's back toward the comet while thrusting away; they'll crash into Chmmr's backside, but they can't wedge into that, and the zap sats will pick off plenty of their crew while they get their hits in. When Androsynth rams Chmmr in the back like that, it's not even an even exchange of damage. The Chmmr will still win by attrition.

As with most match-ups, testing this out against the cyborg doesn't really tell you much. Chmmr cyborg does the opposite of what's optimal against Androsynth, while Androsynth cyborg... 1) doesn't try to wedge into your weak spots, 2) putters around until you allow it to get uncomfortably close to you, 3) is timid about charging into a Chmmr that's moving away, but eventually will if you cat-n-mouse with it just right.

Quote:
Preferred targets: Most ships, really. The Skiff, Fury and Cruiser are particularly notable[...]

Argh, no. Pkunk is a good choice, but those other two are a terrible waste of a 30pt ship. You want to eat up something expensive and threatening like Mmrnmhrm.


Last edited by Shiver on Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Chmmr Avatar
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:47 am 
Offline
Yehat Revolutionist
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:10 am
Posts: 623
Location: Sweden
Shiver wrote:
Argh, no. Pkunk is a good choice, but those other two are a terrible waste of a 30pt ship. You want to eat up something expensive and threatening like Mmrnmhrm.

I admit the Cruiser is sort of a crappy target, but I put it in there simply because if you face one, you'll almost always emerge unscathed. Even a full fleet of Cruisers won't stand a chance against a properly-used Avatar, and that fact alone gave them a spot. As for the Skiff, it likewise gets very easily defeated, whilst being a credible threat to many other ships. Some Skiffs can be really nasty to fight, you know. The point of the section isn't only "what should I use this against in SuperMelee?"; the thought was more along the lines of "what can this ship most effectively kill?"

_________________
"Sentient life. We are the Ur-Quan. Independence is intolerable. Blah, blah, blah." - the Spathi High Council, Star Control II.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Chmmr Avatar
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:49 am 
Offline
Arilou wiseguy
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:03 am
Posts: 199
Quasispacial wrote:
The point of the section isn't only "what should I use this against in SuperMelee?"; the thought was more along the lines of "what can this ship most effectively kill?"

The first question is more pertinent. The second is only one component of the first. Chasing clean kills does not win PvP matches.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Chmmr Avatar
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:32 am 
Offline
Yehat Revolutionist
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:10 am
Posts: 623
Location: Sweden
Shiver wrote:
Chasing clean kills does not win PvP matches.

True, true. Nevertheless, the analysis isn't aimed only at PvP matches. Even if it were, I still think the Skiff is a valid target, simply because it's so hard to hit the damn thing if the enemy uses it competently. The Cruiser may be a bit of a moot point, but as I said, it's so incapable of fighting the Avatar that to not include it just wouldn't feel right. It feels very much as though you are approaching this from the angle of PvP at the exclusion of everything else, whereas I aim for a somewhat broader context, something which you may see in a tactical readout in-universe. If you were to come up against a Cruiser, the Avatar is your best pick to deal with it cleanly. Were I to go into the intricacies of picking the right ship depending on what the enemy happens to have in their fleet other than the current target, we'd be here all day.

_________________
"Sentient life. We are the Ur-Quan. Independence is intolerable. Blah, blah, blah." - the Spathi High Council, Star Control II.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Chmmr Avatar
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:56 pm 
Offline
Slylandro gasbags
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:16 pm
Posts: 1284
Location: Dallas, TX
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m really digging all of this great feedback! :D

Thanks Shiver for explaining proper Guardian wedge denial tactics; many folks, myself included, can benefit from that information when considering that particular match-up.

Quasispatial wrote:
The Chenjesu used hover platforms, I think. Presumably the Chmmr utilize something similar. Hard to know for certain without asking them. I don't think they ever mention it in the game, and it's pre-war knowledge too, so I wouldn't call this tidbit spoilers.

Yes, I kind of remember something to that effect being depicted about the Chenjesu, so it makes sense from that viewpoint, but didn’t the Mmrnmhrm have legs?… Or perhaps wheels? If so, I’m thinking it would’ve made sense for them to integrate something in terms of locomotion during their hybridization process, but perhaps the captain’s introducing rapid evolution into the mix caused trivial things such as legs to be left behind in their instantaneous development.

But let’s get to some battle simulation, and I will be using awesome cyborg settings to see if I have finally found a worthy ship that hopefully even the AI can’t mess up!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Har! Har! Har! Must say, your appearance here comes as quite surprise to us! We never expected to see any of you ever again... after our Ur-Quan masters put your species under slave shield!” – Umgah (partial quote)

14 Chmmr Avatars (14 x 30 = 420 pts.)
VS.
14 Umgah Drones
(14 x 7 = 98 pts.)


RESULTS: Chmmr wins with 12 remaining Avatars!
Approximate battle time: 3 minutes

ANALYSIS: As this short battle began, the effect of the Tractor Beam on the much smaller Drone was tremendous, one flashing electrical arc from the Chmmr pilot to the beam’s button sent the Umgah ship whizzing through space towards the Avatar, but the huge levels of momentum we’re too much for the Chmmr to handle, and the Drone would fly right through their path and onward through the edge of the screen, and then back again; sometimes the Umgah would unexpectedly slam on the brakes via a tap on their reverse propulsion system. The Umgah then would move in, trying to get its cone to touch the Avatars frame, but the ZapSats made this a difficult and deadly task, and by comparison, the Drone could only inflict a small amount of damage before it was incinerated. In fact, often times the Chmmr didn’t hardly bother to use the main laser, allowing the ZapSats to do the heavy lifting. One other note: The last Umgah destroyed the 2nd Avatar, but it was also destroyed during the exchange since the ZapSats remained active while the Avatar was still exploding.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_________________
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” ― Khan Noonien Singh


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Chmmr Avatar
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:16 pm 
Offline
Atum-ta the Sixth
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:09 am
Posts: 1280
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
The Troglodyte wrote:
But let’s get to some battle simulation, and I will be using awesome cyborg settings to see if I have finally found a worthy ship that hopefully even the AI can’t mess up!


You are seriously underestimating the AI's capacity for messing up if you even think this is a possibility.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 74 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group - Theme modification by Lukipela and custom theme art by Zensmurfy