What the Kzer-Za might do after being defeated.

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TSC
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What the Kzer-Za might do after being defeated.

Post by TSC » Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:38 pm

I still am having fun talking about various Star Control things. And this one I think can be fairly quickly explained.

The Kzer-Za (Along with the VUX) are amongst the Star Control species one of the most likely for fans to put in the proverbial 'leather pants'.

They might be quite haughty and imperious, but they seem to have a reasonable and even compassionate side to them.

And I think that's probably being way to optimistic about the Green Quans!

All Quans have genetic memory, which their quotes mention (My ancestors scream from their chambers within my mind.) And this ensured that even Quans born thousands of years after their traumatic slavery to the Dnyarri where born with intense amounts of paranoia, throwing them into an endless war against all other intelligent lifeforms trying to be 'safe'.

And being defeated wouldn't cause the Kzer-Za to revert to their more cooperative Milieu forebears. It'd likely scar them so much worse!

In fact it's extremely likely that whilst they try to flee, the Kohr-Ah will start arguing to them.

'See what your foolish compassion for the alien filth got you! If you had only exterminated these species, we would now still have the symbol of Ur-Quan dominance! Our species have never been under greater threat since the slave empire, thanks to the foolish pity you took on these lifeforms! The path of now and forever is wrong, the eternal doctrine is right. This has been demonstrated now.'

And the Kzer-Za, now further traumatized might very well say. '... you might have a point.'

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Death 999
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Re: What the Kzer-Za might do after being defeated.

Post by Death 999 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:12 pm

On the other hand, they could turn that around and say 'If it weren't for your threatening their utter annihilation, do you think they would have banded together like that? You made this pickle just as much as we did.'

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Re: What the Kzer-Za might do after being defeated.

Post by Quasispatial » Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:00 am

Death 999 wrote:On the other hand, they could turn that around and say 'If it weren't for your threatening their utter annihilation, do you think they would have banded together like that? You made this pickle just as much as we did.'
"How true, captain, how true" - Fwiffo, Star Control 2.
Indeed, you have a point. The situation could spark another Ur-Quan civil war just as much as it could yield an alliance. At the very least, the two sub-races' diplomatic ties could go even more sour as they start to blame one another for the loss.
Essentially the question could become "if a vase is pushed off a shelf, does the blame then lie with the one who pushed it, or the one who put it up there in the first place?" The Kohr-Ah, of course, would claim the latter, whilst the Kzer-Za would respond that it would have stood perfectly fine up there if the Kohr-Ah hadn't come along and nudged it.
"Sentient life. We are the Ur-Quan. Independence is intolerable. Blah, blah, blah." - the Spathi High Council, Star Control II.

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Re: What the Kzer-Za might do after being defeated.

Post by TSC » Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:52 pm

Except that the Kohr-Ah have a stronger logical case!

Because the Captain didn't start out even KNOWING about the Kohr-Ah. And would have quite clearly fought the Kzer-Za even if there had never been any Kohr-Ah.

Also the Kzer-Za's slavering ways caused aliens to band together against them once before too with the Old Alliance.


The reason I think the Kzer-Za would more gravitate towards the Kohr-Ah is also their psychology.

The Kzer-Za, like the Kohr-Ah, are traumatized (via genetic memory), with extreme paranoia about other species.

Now the Kohr-Ah discared all morality and decided that as long as any such species lived, they where never save from them. Even a weak species could stumble on their own Sa-Matra and become a formidable threat.

The Kzer-Za desperately tried to hold onto some remnant of Milieu/Taalo morality, but twisted it in their paranoia. When they claim to have saved hundreds of races from themselves, claim their slavery is a boon. They are trying to justify to themselves that they're good guys.

But when the result of their 'good guy' behaviour is that the slaves they where so generously giving their 'boon' to just band together and destroy them... The Kohr-Ah might push them over the edge.

And I really don't think the Quans'd be in the mood to fight eachother when they're in such dire straits either. They lost their Sa-Matra, the Chmmr (Who ALSO developped thanks to the Kzer-Za generously letting two species share the same slaveshielded world.) Gave them a tremendous trashing. If they start fighting eachother now, they'd be doomed.

So they'd talk... And I think from an Ur-Quanian perspective, in which all other races are potential threats. (With the Kzer-Za's slave races threat just having manifested!) The Kzer-Za would ideologically move towards the Kohr-Ah.

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Re: What the Kzer-Za might do after being defeated.

Post by glory_device » Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:38 pm

TSC wrote:Except that the Kohr-Ah have a stronger logical case!

Because the Captain didn't start out even KNOWING about the Kohr-Ah. And would have quite clearly fought the Kzer-Za even if there had never been any Kohr-Ah.

Also the Kzer-Za's slavering ways caused aliens to band together against them once before too with the Old Alliance.
When you think about it...the captain would have been crushed if the Kohr-Ah weren't there to distract the Kzer-Za. You are ultimately able to resolve the situation and band together for the simple reason that they are too busy fighting each other. So The Kohr-Ah are equally responsible for the disaster. If they simply passed by, waved a hello and continue forward...
''I swiftly matured into a fine example of my species and with my parents' assistance, achieved independence.
Specifically, they pried me from the doorjamb, and rolled me into the street.'' -Fwiffo

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Re: What the Kzer-Za might do after being defeated.

Post by TSC » Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:53 pm

Well... first off...

The Kzer-Za did NOT maintain a presence on Earth. They had the Spathi and Ilwrath guard the area. And the Ilwrath left twenty years ago. Had the Kohr-Ah already arrived at that point?

It seems the Kzer-Za, though I agree they would have been much more likely to crush the captain without any Kohr-Ah present), wouldn't necessarily have crushed him instantly. (Still giving him a chance to start a slave revolt. Even if Kohr-Ah presence made this easier.

However the Kohr-Ah would NOT have waved and said hello, because the Ur-Quan agreed to said ritual combat. Including Kzer-Za consent. In fact it was the Kzer-Za's idea. They could have exterminated the Kohr-Ah in the past, but HINT HINT, they thought the Kohr-Ah might be right back then!

And the Kohr-Ah could now go and say "Yep, we sure were, look at where you letting all these species live got us!"

I think the defeat is more likely to crush that last shard of wanting to be good guys out of the Kzer-Za then to have them blame the Kohr-Ah for it. Besides the Kohr-Ah could say "Hey, just stick with us fellow Ur-Quan, we've BEEN defeated before, we know how to get past it."


I think maybe I need to justify this further. So think of a Kzer-Za perspective.

The Kzer-Za, unlike the Kohr-Ah, are conflicted.

They hate and fear aliens, think they are inferior and refuse to speak to them directly. But they can't bring themselves to kill them all. (Quite possibly due to civilizing influence from their dear Taalo friends.)

It'd be much easier for them to give in to their hate and fear following this defeat, then to give in to the ethical side they are trying to cling to.

With their defeat, their fear about aliens was made manifest. The aliens came and defeated them. They lost the Sa-Matra, they got an asskicking from the Chmmr. Their fears became reality.

And thus I think they'd be susceptible to that fear more then to their last vestige of compassion.

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Re: What the Kzer-Za might do after being defeated.

Post by Draxas » Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:34 pm

The key reason I think the Kzer-Za wouldn't flock to the Kohr-Ah's cause is because of their dialog after the death march begins. Once the Kohr-Ah begin their rampage, the Kzer-Za not only become entirely non-hostile (with the exception of the Sa-Matra guards), they encourage you to flee, to hide, and to survive the coming purge. Even with their defeat in the doctrinal conflict, the Kzer-Za refuse to accept the Kohr-Ah's ideology as correct, even though that was the ostensible purpose of having the doctrinal conflict in the first place. The Kzer-Za are conflicted not so much because they think that the Kohr-Ah's Eternal Doctrine may be correct, but because even when they decided millennia ago to pursue the Path of Now and Forever, they knew deep down that it was wrong. The Kzer-Za always had their doubts about the Path, I suspect, but simply couldn't come up with (in their emotionally scarred, twisted perspective) any better way to keep themselves safe than to become the ultimate examples of hypocrisy.

This is why so many folks feel the Kzer-Za might be redeemable: because even when the rituals they have built their entire culture upon demand that they join the Kohr-Ah in pursuing the Eternal Doctrine, they falter and delude themselves into thinking that they will meet for a third doctrinal conflict in the future. This is despite knowing that their way forward will only lead to barren worlds that have already been cleansed, while the Kohr-Ah will have free reign to effortlessly exterminate the slave races left behind in the Kzer-Za's wake. Yet they still cannot bring themselves to actively follow the Eternal Doctrine in spite of everything. If their defeat by the Kohr-Ah causes them to renege on an agreement they have held sacred for millennia rather than accept the Eternal Doctrine as correct, why would defeat by the New Alliance cause them to pull a 180 and suddenly embrace the Eternal Doctrine?

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Re: What the Kzer-Za might do after being defeated.

Post by Maloo Oture » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:18 pm

Draxas wrote:The key reason I think the Kzer-Za wouldn't flock to the Kohr-Ah's cause is because of their dialog after the death march begins. Once the Kohr-Ah begin their rampage, the Kzer-Za not only become entirely non-hostile (with the exception of the Sa-Matra guards), they encourage you to flee, to hide, and to survive the coming purge. Even with their defeat in the doctrinal conflict, the Kzer-Za refuse to accept the Kohr-Ah's ideology as correct, even though that was the ostensible purpose of having the doctrinal conflict in the first place. The Kzer-Za are conflicted not so much because they think that the Kohr-Ah's Eternal Doctrine may be correct, but because even when they decided millennia ago to pursue the Path of Now and Forever, they knew deep down that it was wrong. The Kzer-Za always had their doubts about the Path, I suspect, but simply couldn't come up with (in their emotionally scarred, twisted perspective) any better way to keep themselves safe than to become the ultimate examples of hypocrisy.

This is why so many folks feel the Kzer-Za might be redeemable: because even when the rituals they have built their entire culture upon demand that they join the Kohr-Ah in pursuing the Eternal Doctrine, they falter and delude themselves into thinking that they will meet for a third doctrinal conflict in the future. This is despite knowing that their way forward will only lead to barren worlds that have already been cleansed, while the Kohr-Ah will have free reign to effortlessly exterminate the slave races left behind in the Kzer-Za's wake. Yet they still cannot bring themselves to actively follow the Eternal Doctrine in spite of everything. If their defeat by the Kohr-Ah causes them to renege on an agreement they have held sacred for millennia rather than accept the Eternal Doctrine as correct, why would defeat by the New Alliance cause them to pull a 180 and suddenly embrace the Eternal Doctrine?
Well said. I agree entirely.

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Re: What the Kzer-Za might do after being defeated.

Post by TSC » Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:22 pm

I figured people would bring up the Kzer-Za during the death march. And I am well aware of it.

Gotta say though, that gives us the Kzer-Za who are in the knowledge that the Sa-Matra, even if no longer in THEIR possession is still in UR-QUAN possession, safeguarding their symbol of Ur-Quan Dominance.

Those Kzer-Za where defeated in agreed upon ritual combat. To their regret, to be sure. But not in a way that threathens their core values.

When the Sa-Matra is destroyed, the Ur-Quan are REALLY defeated. In a way the Kzer-Za never experienced. (Also note in this timeline they likely did NOT lose their ritual combat to the Kohr-Ah, it's more likely that this was interrupted by the destruction of the Sa-Matra.)

This thus means that the situation for the Kzer-Za is vastly different after losing the Sa-Matra, then it is after losing their doctrinal conflict. And that thus the Kzer-Za response could also be very different.

Now to be sure, this is no GARANTUEE the Kzer-Za will go the way of the Kohr-Ah. But there's a strong case to be made that they are now likely to consider it. Defeat by fellow Quans and defeat by the aliens they always feared and hated is a very very different thing to any Ur-Quan.

So I still think people are far to optimistic about the Kzer-Za. I think they're more likely to discard their remnants of compassion and embrace their fear and hatred then the other way around. (Because having just received an unexpected ass-kicking from aliens isn't especially going to soothe that fear.)

Now I don't necessarily expect everyone to agree with me. But don't you think my case DOES have logic in it, even if you don't agree?

I do think I'm following Ur-Quan psychology quite well, with their damaged genetic memory and inherent deep paranoia.

-

To me it seems that most people overestimate how nice the Kzer-Za are. Even Milieu Ur-Quan really weren't all THAT nice. Being aggressively territorial and inherently xenophobic, only able to stand the Taalo. Likely because they looked more like background scenery then creatures to them. Other aliens inherently would be seen by Ur-Quan instincts as prey, intruders and/or rivals.

Now it seems the Milieu Quans could generally contain this to the degree they where able to hold patient polite conversations with the Slylandro. But they still avoided other races even THEN.

Now the Kzer-Za have deep paranoia atop of it. As well as a racial ideology that other species are inferior (hence talking pets.) and revolting. And I think the only reason they show some compassion is a pang of guilt caused by the kindness of the Taalo towards them. AND because the Sa-Matra ensures Ur-Quan dominance. (So they're not AFRAID to do that.)

And even in this state, you should remember what they did to Buenos Aires (And Earth in general!) after conquest. (And the Spathi also say the Quans did it to them ('Portions of that ceremony involved blasting parts of our planet to radioactive dust.') Showing this was standard procedure for the Quans.

I think a such their redeemability is... VERY dubious.

Is that odd?

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Re: What the Kzer-Za might do after being defeated.

Post by Death 999 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:54 pm

No, it isn't. I think this is one of those things that could go either way.

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