About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

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Draxas
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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by Draxas » Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:14 pm

The Troglodyte wrote:Either that or until recently, none of the alien species they've encountered prior were deemed powerful enough to be included as thralls. I noticed the Ur-Quan didn't bring any thralls with them before conquering the Umgah. Another theory is that we live in our galaxy's equivalent of the "cradle of civlization" and they hadn't discovered very much in terms of sentient life until recently.
You haven't yet seen what the Kzer-Za do with slaves that want to become battle thralls but are deemed too weak to be useful, but you will eventually. As for slaves left behind in other regions of the galaxy, my personal theory is that once an entire sector is enslaved, the battle thralls come to a sudden revelation that their relative freedom was only temporary as they are forced to relocate to their newly slave shielded homeworld or be eliminated. After all, if the Ur-Quan can take them on once to subjugate them, they can easily do it again when the time comes, but once they leave the local area they will not want any other sentients left behind to think they might no longer be slaves anymore. This way, there are no loose ends or potential problems left behind in their wake, only fallow slaves neatly trapped on a single world.
Thanks for the clarification. You're right, both Ur-Quans aren't probably focused on the actual completion, but rather the task at hand. In a manner of speaking, they go about their business the same way a doctor or police officer does -- neither profession ever expects to eliminate disease or crime, so it's likely the same mentality for the Ur-Quan.
There is some evidence in game that the Ur-Quan really haven't considered the idea of life without the doctrinal conflict. At least one sub-species, and probably both (I can't remember off hand), expect that once the current doctrinal war is over and a victor has emerged, the winner will deal with the sentients in this sector as they see fit, and then both will continue on in opposite directions to fulfill their doctrines once more. Realistically speaking, it's less of a way of deciding who is right, and more of an extremely violent ceremony to determine who gets the trophy before they part ways to do their own thing again. With the quantity and speed that sentient races crop up, it's not like either side will have any trouble finding more to subjugate or exterminate, regardless of how thorough their counterparts were or whether they are going over the same regions again.
I agree that the green are probably more intelligent, but by how much? The black have to do everything themselves while the Kzer-Za have slaves. Hmmm, does this mean the Kohr-Ah have achieved greater cooperation than their counterparts and have learned to work together as a group? Their ships have a large crew, but they have no thralls, so are they filled only with Kohr-Ah then? That would seem... significant.

It also makes me wonder why the Ur-Quan don't use their thralls against the Kohr-Ah. I'm sure it's their code of honor or something, but if they really feel their doctrine is the correct one, then what better example is there than saying, "See there? When you enslave the aliens, you can have them fight your battles for you, so our way is better."
Again, this is less a war and more a spaceborne, extremely violent Superbowl to the Ur-Quan. The only thing that would seem to be accomplished is determining which side takes possession of the Sa-Matra until next "season." The Kzer-Za using their thralls against the Kohr-Ah goes against the spirit of this ceremony, which is supposed to determine which subspecies is superior, despite the fact that they are comparing doctrines by proxy.

As for which one is smarter, it is a matter of perspective. The Kohr-Ah were modified to be workers, builders, and soldiers. As such, they are much better at cooperating in close proximity, but their ideas and the execution of those ideas tend to be simpler and more straightforward. The Kzer-Za were instead modified to be scientists and thinkers, which means that they have more in the way of book smarts, but it also introduces a lot of complexity to the things they try to do, to the point where many things have become rituals to them, or at least very rigid procedures that are not to be deviated from. This is perfectly illustrated by how each subspecies responds to The Words. The Kzer-Za respond with a lengthy, clearly previously prepared speech that requires the speaker to simply listen to their tale (and then die), whereas the Kohr-Ah allow the speaker to ask as many questions as they like that they will then explain from their perspective (followed by the part where the speaker then dies, because both subspecies agree on that point at least).
An Ilwrath youth that's too friendly is taken in for psychiatric evaluations and coaxed to torture something like a good boy. Mycon that think Juffo-Wup is overrated are put in refrigerators. 7 of 9 was a high-value target of the Borg. Perhaps brave Spathi are shunned... I don't know.
Ilwrath juveniles that are friendly get cannibalized by their siblings very quickly, which is at least partially why only the meanest and evilest specimens reach adulthood. That, and ritual torture and self mutilation are a societal norm for the Ilwrath, so not confirming is a great way to end up ritually tortured.

The Mycon are something of a special case. They pretty clearly have genetic memories, and can seemingly communicate with or be possessed by any of their ancestors at any time, so any one self tends to be submerged within the collective. Having an opinion so wildly different from the norm would be grounds for not only possession, but also for that genetic line to be culled. That aside, there is no small amount of evidence supporting the idea that the Mycon are artificial life forms that have their ancestral memories implanted when they are spawned, or perhaps they all simply share the same original ancestor, and thus the same core worldview, that would prevent drastic deviations in thought.

As for brave Spathi, this is sort of the whole joke behind the Black Spathi Squadron. That said, a brave Spathi would likely die young, as its parents would be terrified of it.

All that said, it's good that you have finally encountered and conversed with the Ur-Quan. It makes discussions like these possible, versus being entirely blacked out in spoiler tags.

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by krulle » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:33 pm

That reply is somewhat spoiler heavy.
Granted, spoilers that affect background story, and not the actual game, but spoilery non-theless.
You use the name of the trophy, as one example
Can we drop the discussion for a little while?

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by The Troglodyte » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:57 pm

Draxas wrote:
The Troglodyte wrote:Either that or until recently, none of the alien species they've encountered prior were deemed powerful enough to be included as thralls. I noticed the Ur-Quan didn't bring any thralls with them before conquering the Umgah. Another theory is that we live in our galaxy's equivalent of the "cradle of civlization" and they hadn't discovered very much in terms of sentient life until recently.
You haven't yet seen what the Kzer-Za do with slaves that want to become battle thralls but are deemed too weak to be useful, but you will eventually.
I’ll keep that in mind!
Draxas wrote:As for slaves left behind in other regions of the galaxy, my personal theory is that once an entire sector is enslaved, the battle thralls come to a sudden revelation that their relative freedom was only temporary as they are forced to relocate to their newly slave shielded homeworld or be eliminated. After all, if the Ur-Quan can take them on once to subjugate them, they can easily do it again when the time comes, but once they leave the local area they will not want any other sentients left behind to think they might no longer be slaves anymore. This way, there are no loose ends or potential problems left behind in their wake, only fallow slaves neatly trapped on a single world.
Interesting theory, and it makes sense to me. Does that mean if (and I know it’s a big if) the Kzer-Za won, would they apply slave-shields to the current Hierarchy before leaving the area? If so, what would they do about crew for their ships?

Well, the Spathi already did the job for them, but I’m not sure how things would go for the Ilwrath... If the Ur-Quan ever returned, they might find the spidery homeworld empty, since over time the Ilwrath might sacrifice/eat/torture/destroy each other until there’s no one left!
Draxas wrote:Again, this is less a war and more a spaceborne, extremely violent Superbowl to the Ur-Quan.
I’m already pretty convinced that Coach Bill Belichick is a Kohr-Ah in disguise!
Draxas wrote:
The Troglodyte wrote:An Ilwrath youth that's too friendly is taken in for psychiatric evaluations and coaxed to torture something like a good boy.
Ilwrath juveniles that are friendly get cannibalized by their siblings very quickly, which is at least partially why only the meanest and evilest specimens reach adulthood. That, and ritual torture and self mutilation are a societal norm for the Ilwrath, so not confirming is a great way to end up ritually tortured.
Yikes! A very cringe-worthy display of natural selection! :o-smf
Draxas wrote:All that said, it's good that you have finally encountered and conversed with the Ur-Quan. It makes discussions like these possible, versus being entirely blacked out in spoiler tags.
Agreed! The more I uncover, the less talking there is going on behind my back! ;)
krulle wrote:That reply is somewhat spoiler heavy. Can we drop the discussion for a little while?

I've already pieced together some of the background info on my own from different conversations from the Ur-Quan and others, so there's nothing there that I wasn't aware of, but your suggestion is prudent, since we're starting to head in that direction. I have however been enjoying these discussions and the various viewpoints that people have contributed. :)
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” ― Khan Noonien Singh

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by krulle » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:10 am

Oh, I loved discussing about this and that when I first played it.
I was happy that I had two friends playing too, who were about as fast as I was in-game.

That was always the greatest allure to me, the background story which did not impact the game all taht much, but it gave the alien races motives.

And gave a lot to discuss about.
And your playing style offered you insights which I never got (as I never used the time-portal to check for different outcomes, or provoke different outcomes during the encounters).

I played very differently though: for example I never saw a Slylandro Probe in a system, I only ever met them in HyperSpace.
May have been a slightly different coding for the PC-DOS version....

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by The Troglodyte » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:01 pm

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Captain’s Log - Dec 30, 2156 - HyperSpace (412:377.0) - Yellow Alert

We are finally out of red alert and we’ve engaged the HyperDrive engines and have just achieved maximum velocity. We are on a heading towards Betelgeuse, since going to Epsilon Camelopardalis is out of the question; there’s no way we could make it there and escape Ur-Quan territory… Which brings us to our fuel situation:

Image

After we had escaped the squadron of 5 Kohr-Ah Marauders, we were confronted by a foursome of Dreadnoughts, with other bogeys closing in. I knew we were going to have our hands full for a long while ahead, but the funny thing is… I actually found myself relaxing a bit whenever the Kzer-Za were on my screen, screaming how we were about to be punished, since I knew the Vindicator could handle them with less difficulty than the Kohr-Ah vessels… which it did.

Unfortunately, a little while later (after we destroyed a pair of Dreadnoughts followed by a single Marauder) we had to use the emergency escape once again after the previous contingent of 5 Marauders re-emerged into HyperSpace and overtook us, but afterwards we found an opening in the swirl of ships and accelerated quickly enough to dodge them all.

Hopefully we can avoid the rest of Ur-Quan ships and get far enough outside of their territory that they’ll lose track of us, long enough for us to make it to Betelgeuse. The Syreen won’t be able to provide us with fuel, but I’m betting if we make it outside of Ur-Quan space, then maybe we can send a distress call…

As a test, I saved our position and then used the time portal to put us back to a time prior to entering the Ur-Quans’ spheres of influence(s), whereupon we immediately left Epsilon Gruis and activated the Umgah Caster out in HyperSpace to see what would happen, and lo and behold, a Melnorme ship came by a few days later! I’m thinking we can do the same thing after we arrive near Betelgeuse, but it takes the sluggish Trader ship some time to respond, so we have to be beyond the Ur-Quan’s range for this to work.

We will continue on course for Betelgeuse. Fingers crossed. Zelnick out.
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“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” ― Khan Noonien Singh

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by krulle » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Now you have plenty of Melnorme Credits, that's a nice way of saving time for refuel trips.
You could also convert the Credits into fuel, and at the starbase convert the fuel into RU, if ever necessary....(as an idea)

I always found the information about current events slightly too cheap, as that seems to be a hint-system.
A second hint system was intended in the game, but the time ran out for the programmers to implement it fully.

May I discuss about alternative things in-game, which you cannot access anymore?
(at least nowhere in this timeline or close to it)

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by The Troglodyte » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:43 pm

krulle wrote:May I discuss about alternative things in-game, which you cannot access anymore? (at least nowhere in this timeline or close to it)
Be my guest. :)
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” ― Khan Noonien Singh

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by krulle » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:51 pm

The Melnorme have a trait which you will not see in-game anymore.
As long as you did not make them your enemies, they will come to you in time, if your fuel is empty and you are in HyperSpace.
When you do not have Credits or BioInfo, they rip you off to give you just enough fuel to fly home (by taking non-essential stuff from your ship, like thrusters, turning jets, modules, to pay for the fuel). OTOH, if you have nothing and are stranded, they do provide you with free fuel to return to the StarBase, as an investment into future trade relations.
This ensures that it becomes very unlikely that you get stranded in the game. They will come and ensure you can continue your quests. For a nominal fee, of course.

You could take a timeportal to the very beginning and test that, or save it for a second game...

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by Tormuse » Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:10 am

krulle wrote:That reply is somewhat spoiler heavy....
Can we drop the discussion for a little while?
Aww, but I wanted to comment on it too! :shock: (I promise I'll keep it spoiler-free) :)

I wanted to say thanks to Quasispatial for your analysis of the Ur-Quan migration; it makes a lot of sense. Up until now, I was under the impression that the Kohr-Ah had just finished killing all life in half the galaxy and the Kzer-Za had just finished enslaving all life in the other half, which is pretty grim. :| It's good to know that there's probably plenty of other free intelligent life outside of the swaths they cut through their respective paths, but still, it sure seems to me that no matter who wins the doctrinal conflict, the Kohr-Ah still win, because when they go their separate ways again, sooner or later, I imagine the Kohr-Ah are just going to kill everyone that the Kzer-Za enslaved, neatly packaged up and defenceless under their slave shields. :|

As for the sanity stuff, my personal theory is that Ur-Quan are telepathic. (I don't think it's actually mentioned anywhere, but it would explain a lot) I suspect that their susceptibility to the Dnyarri mind control is a side-effect of their telepathy and that's what made them the Dnyarri's favourite slaves. Also, it would explain why they are still obsessed with events from 20000 years ago; all the pain, anger, grief, and fear has been passed on from generation to generation and that's why the Kohr-Ah that you say "the words" to talks about the excruciator as if he's used it himself, even though they most likely haven't been used for millenia. Each Ur-Quan child for thousands of years has grown up being bombarded by all those emotions, maybe even while they're still in the womb! (egg?) I suspect that growing up being tormented by unending negative emotions and pain would make it hard to find reasons to continue living and they cling to their doctrines as the one thing that keeps them going. So yeah, you could call them insane, driven mad by their collective painful upbringing; I imagine that if you could somehow separate an individual Ur-Quan from the rest of its kind, they might turn out all right.
The Troglodyte wrote: It also makes me wonder why the Ur-Quan don't use their thralls against the Kohr-Ah. I'm sure it's their code of honor or something, but if they really feel their doctrine is the correct one, then what better example is there than saying, "See there? When you enslave the aliens, you can have them fight your battles for you, so our way is better."
I wondered about that too. ???-smf
krulle wrote:
The Troglodyte wrote:
krulle wrote:BumpingTool
Interesting ship name. Is there a back-story?
Well, I was always bumping into the planets (mostly accientally). So when my friends started joking about it (we played in on school computers in school), I demonstrated that I could do it on purpose in-game. Alas, I failed, by having the initial Ilwrath Avenger trapped between my BumpingTool and the planet, positive side-effect, the nose of my BumpingTool got stuck between the nozzle and the wing of the Avenger. This was so successful and created so much laughter, that the name stuck. Whenever I remembered to change the name, I used BumpingTool, or BT for short.
It occurs to me that that very same strategy was employed by one of the rebel ships in the most recent Star Wars movie, Rogue One! :D

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by Quasispatial » Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:34 am

Tormuse wrote:
krulle wrote:That reply is somewhat spoiler heavy....
Can we drop the discussion for a little while?
Aww, but I wanted to comment on it too! :shock: (I promise I'll keep it spoiler-free) :)

I wanted to say thanks to Quasispatial for your analysis of the Ur-Quan migration; it makes a lot of sense. Up until now, I was under the impression that the Kohr-Ah had just finished killing all life in half the galaxy and the Kzer-Za had just finished enslaving all life in the other half, which is pretty grim. :| It's good to know that there's probably plenty of other free intelligent life outside of the swaths they cut through their respective paths, but still, it sure seems to me that no matter who wins the doctrinal conflict, the Kohr-Ah still win, because when they go their separate ways again, sooner or later, I imagine the Kohr-Ah are just going to kill everyone that the Kzer-Za enslaved, neatly packaged up and defenceless under their slave shields. :|

As for the sanity stuff, my personal theory is that Ur-Quan are telepathic. (I don't think it's actually mentioned anywhere, but it would explain a lot) I suspect that their susceptibility to the Dnyarri mind control is a side-effect of their telepathy and that's what made them the Dnyarri's favourite slaves. Also, it would explain why they are still obsessed with events from 20000 years ago; all the pain, anger, grief, and fear has been passed on from generation to generation and that's why the Kohr-Ah that you say "the words" to talks about the excruciator as if he's used it himself, even though they most likely haven't been used for millenia. Each Ur-Quan child for thousands of years has grown up being bombarded by all those emotions, maybe even while they're still in the womb! (egg?) I suspect that growing up being tormented by unending negative emotions and pain would make it hard to find reasons to continue living and they cling to their doctrines as the one thing that keeps them going. So yeah, you could call them insane, driven mad by their collective painful upbringing; I imagine that if you could somehow separate an individual Ur-Quan from the rest of its kind, they might turn out all right.
You're welcome. I'm sure most of us have had that impression at one point or another.
In actuality though, it's probably just an effect of their genetic memory. The Kohr-Ah mentioned that "my ancestors scream from within their chambers in my mind", so it isn't so much a case of the memories being transferred telepathically as the individuals who suffered through it still remaining 'alive' within their offspring. I suspect the Ur-Quan, as a race, never really 'forgets', at least not anything which affected as many individuals as the Dnyaari did. I suspect that, even if you raised an Ur-Quan individual in perfect seclusion from their kin, the Doctrines are so ingrained in their genetic memory by this point so that they practically know it from birth. I do think it might be possible for the Ur-Quan to have once utilized a limited psionical sense in order to find prey, however, which would very much explain why their minds were so open to the Dnyaari manipulation.
I can't really make my full point without using quotes which are as of yet spoilers though, so I agree that we should put this discussion about the Ur-Quan on the backburner for the time being.
"Sentient life. We are the Ur-Quan. Independence is intolerable. Blah, blah, blah." - the Spathi High Council, Star Control II.

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