About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

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The Troglodyte
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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by The Troglodyte » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:21 pm

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Captain's Log - Supplemental:

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The Kohr-Ah are a little more straightforward than their predecessors, and our impending death was foremost on their mind. I melodramatically cowered and clasped my hands together and used my best squeaky, little girl voice when asking them “Hold! What you are doing to us is wrong? Why do you do this thing?” which ironically sounded much like Fwiffo’s voice. I only did this as an attempt to ease the tension of my snickering bridge crew, and to let them know everything was going to be okay. If only it were…

Both of the Ur-Quans must feel some kind of responsibility to stop down and explain themselves anytime they’re asked the special phrase, or as they like to call it… “The Words.” They told the tale of the events from their perspective and it pretty much paralleled what the green guys told us, with a few exceptions:

Just like the others (the Ur-Quan and Melnorme… or should I perhaps say Mael Num?) they told us about being mentally controlled and enslaved by the Dnyarri, as well as undergoing genetic modifications that split them into two different sub-species, and unfortunately for us, we’re getting the opportunity to witness the result of the Dnyarri’s handiwork up close.

They explained how they were forced to kill all of their closest friends, the peaceful Taalo, who's pacifistic disposition made their entire world crumble quickly. (perhaps literally?...you know, because they're rock-like?)

They also included the names of several other races previously unbeknownst to us, including the Yuli and Drall, whom they exterminated since they were looked upon as inferior by the Dnyarri. Sure, they eventually overcame their grim odds by inventing the Excruciator; a nice little contraption designed to allow the user an endless flood of excruciating pain (hence the name) to break the mind control and let the toad-stomping commence.

The aforementioned Mael Num were also mentioned by the Kohr-Ah, whom they described as “one-eyed beings” (hmmm… remind you of anybody?) and they were one of the last of the Milieu races that the Kohr-Ah came to destroy. But when the Kohr-Ah arrived at their homeworld, the Mael Num pleaded with them and asked them why they were doing this, which I guess makes them the originators of the special catch phrase.

The Kohr-Ah felt a need to explain their reasoning, which is odd to me, considering it doesn’t change anything from the Kohr-Ah’s standpoint, but maybe they feel better after telling their story of bondage and torment as a form of some kind of bizarre justification for their actions right before the onslaught begins.

As the story goes, the green Kzer-Za fellows showed up and spoiled their plans, claiming that putting other civilizations in their own planet-sized snow globes was perfectly acceptable, but ridding the galaxy of them completely was not cool. The Kohr-Ah disagreed, and a mixture of green and black caterpillar guts went flying in all directions for a good while, and the Melnorme... I mean, uh the Mael Num, used the distraction of the conflict to make their escape.

When the Kzer-Za finally won, they allowed for the Kohr-Ah to continue their cleansing ways, but only while going the opposite direction until they met again and they could fight again to see who's version of galactic justice is the correct one... which is the here and now predicament. I guess it was okay with the green Ur-Quan for the Kohr-Ah to go ahead and completely wipe out half of the galaxy, and if they win their little war, they can go ahead and cleanse the rest as well. Bummer.

Their history lesson does make me feel a little sorry for them, especially when I think about all of the horrible anguish they all must've went through… but then again, I also felt sorry for “Carrie”… up to and including the moment at which the bucket of pig’s blood gets dumped on her head, but my sorrow quickly subsided as she began killing all of the students and school faculty with her special powers.

In the same vein, my empathy and compassion faded fast concerning the Kohr-Ah’s plight:

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I knew it was basically pointless to bring in any of our escort vessels, since there was no way we could take down all five Marauders without taking severe casualties. The only vessel in our fleet that can go toe-to-toe with the Kohr-Ah squadron was our flagship, so we went in full steam ahead.

The mighty power of the Vindicator can certainly outgun the Marauders, but they continuously used their Fiery Ring as a defensive shield against our Hellbore Cannons, which made it much more difficult for us to get our shots to deliver the punishment.

Not only that, but they unleashed their Spinning Blade weaponry with a fervent ferocity, and to make matters worse, the blades also acted as mines that were drawn to our massive bulk of a ship, and before we could destroy all of them, we would inevitably take damage from one or more of the spinning blades.

Our only consolation prize was how it awarded us a chance to go back in time and hear more of the Kohr-Ah’s viewpoints before they’d engage us in battle. I even asked them about the bone-pit they hang over, and I learned that apparently each and every Kohr-Ah captain keeps their very own trophy collection of all the different alien races that they personally helped destroy. I couldn't help but think of Predator.

Another time (after using the time portal of course) I tried to immediately depart and told them goodbye, but they told us we were going to die, but then they sounded like they have a belief system that includes aspects of Hinduism, since they told us if we were lucky enough we would be reborn as an Ur-Quan. Our Pkunk navigator Screech claimed this made sense to him, but I’d personally rather come back a turnip farmer than a giant worm!

Finally, out of sheer desperation, I ordered for us to perform the patent-pending near-planet warp-out maneuver to escape the Kohr-Ah, and then we put the Vindicator and fleet into high warp as fast as possible. In other words, we retreated.

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We are still at red alert and on the run, and our fuel situation is quickly becoming dire, and to top it all off, there's way too many ships in the area to avoid them all.

Looks as if we’ll be heading back to battle stations soon. Batten down the hatches… this might be a rough ride. Captain out.
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“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” ― Khan Noonien Singh

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by krulle » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:54 am

Well, I do not have issues with the Kohr-Ah Marauders when using BumpingTool.
With your configuration, shoot once in the general direction, the F.R.I.E.D. ("Fiery Ring of Inevitable and Eternal Destruction") will deplete their batteries, then gun them down. Usually, they do not get more than a few blades out...

Also, I find it interesting, that the emergency warp unit can spend the extra energy to overcome an inertia and the gravity of the planet, without increasing the time needed to make the jump.


At this point in game I often go to StarBase to have their scientists look over all the stuff you collected (especially the Syreen Pod - get a hidden cam installed or something like that ;) ), ditch the storage bays and outfit my BumpingTool to a pure war-RU-collector.
Quite efficient, you can collect a lot of RU that way. (But without Storage Bays I always wondered how the material got transported "home".)
And with the amount of bioinfo you have, you will have no need for any refueling at StarBase.
But with all your allies collecting at StarBase, Cmdr. Hayes may have quite some useful news for you.

But seeing the two ships, the Dreadnought and the Marauder, I wonder why the Kohr-Ah have difficulties fighting the Kzer-Za.
The Kohr-Ah spinning blades are great against the fighters, who are simply far too vulnerable.

You should know by now how the Kzer-Za won the first doctrinal war.
an old Alliance member has learned also a bit more about that, and will tell you more.

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by Quasispatial » Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:18 pm

The Troglodyte wrote:I guess it was okay with the green Ur-Quan for the Kohr-Ah to go ahead and completely wipe out half of the galaxy, and if they win their little war, they can go ahead and cleanse the rest as well. Bummer.
Erm... that's not entirely correct. Both Ur-Quan sub-species have been going around the galaxy, yes, and the Kohr-Ah have been cleansing whatever life they encounter, yes... but they didn't travel 'round the galaxy in a zigzag path. It's more like they cleaned out a path from one side to the other, going around the galaxy. What they did not do was to go in towards the galactic core, then out again, then inwards, out for a bit and so on in order to cover all the empty space.
The Kohr-Ah have said (and this is a line which I do not know if you have heard, so I'll spoiler-mark it (and closely related discussion) just in case) that if they won the Doctrinal Conflict, their Doctrine would be dominant until such a time where the Kzer-Za win such a war. This very much hints towards the idea that the Kohr-Ah and Kzer-Za would repeat their cross-galactic movements, carrying out their separate doctrines once again before meeting on the other side and starting their doctrinal conflict up again. Assumingly, they would be repeating this until one of them are either defeated (thus proving the inferiority of the defeated's doctrine) or there are no independent sapient life left in the galaxy to target.
In order for this to make any sense, they cannot have cleared half the galaxy each the first time they went through; there would be nothing left to carry out the doctrines on. Besides, it wouldn't make sense for them to move back and forth trying to clear half the galaxy each; they were moving around the galaxy in opposite directions, not clearing half a galaxy each, before meeting again to see who was strongest. Doing the latter thing would defeat the entire point of the doctrinal conflict, since no races would be left to subjugate/destroy, which sort of defeats the point of arguing over doctrines, seeing as the Ur-Quan would be more or less unchallenged by that point.
I think I've rambled enough about this subject for now. I am curious to hear your response, if any.
"Sentient life. We are the Ur-Quan. Independence is intolerable. Blah, blah, blah." - the Spathi High Council, Star Control II.

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by krulle » Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:50 pm

They took 20,000 years to circle half the galaxy and subjugate species they found.
Assuming the speed they took, it is unlikely they actively searched all systems and went for a "radio-noise=subjugatable species" approach.
20,000 years ago, we Hunams have been on our planet, yes, but we made no noise which would have been detectable from orbit in non-visual ranges...

The Kzer-Za may have been more thorough due to their nature as thinkers and bureaucrats...

So, I assume many missed species, plus quite a few species that will only appear on the map during the next voyage.


Discussion for the time after this first doctrinal conflict:
Question though: will the Kzer-Za provide a map of all imprisoned species and the battle-thralls left behind?
If not, the imprisoned species might be on a large advantage when the Kohr-Ah continue through the "cleared" space of the Kzer-Za.

If this information had been on the table from the start, it would've been likely that most species in the last section of the travel path of the Kzer-Za would've chosen "imprisonment", and not "battle thrall" status instead.

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by Quasispatial » Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:56 pm

Let's expand on that bit about the chance of survivors, shall we. Since it took 20 000 years just to go around half the galaxy, it would be nigh-impossible to find and exterminate/subjugate them all. Even if we assume that 99% of the time was spent in battle with 'lesser' species (which is a very generous estimate, seeing as the galaxy in general is not as densely populated as the local sector) that still leaves them with 200 years of travel-time just to go from one end of the galaxy to the other, resource gathering and refuelling included. This would, in turn, mean that the galaxy's hyperspace radius in terms of a Dreadnought's travel-time is roughly 80-100 years from edge to core.
Seeing as the entirety of the Ur-Quan forces were able to reach the doctrinal conflict in a matter of just two years (derived from the fact that A: The Earthguard's Ilwrath contingent left roughly 18 years before the captain's arrival at Sol; B: The Great War between the Hierarchy and the Alliance took place roughly 20 years before the captain's arrival at Sol; and C: The Ilwrath were stated to have left "not long after the last Ur-Quan Dreadnought departed 'this' region of space". The conclusion of this would be that it took, at most, two years for the Ur-Quan to move their battle fleets to the doctrinal conflict), their physical ship presence would not have a diameter greater than that which a Dreadnought traverses in the span of four earthen years.

If we look at the fact that the Ur-Quan detected human radio transmissions as early as the 1940s, their reach for those scanners must be at least 170 years' worth, possibly more seeing as the detection depended on humans inventing radio rather than the Ur-Quan coming into range. However, that would mean that their scanners would detect things throughout almost the entire galaxy if they were to place them at the core of the galaxy, which obviously cannot be correct; the Ur-Quan could not have moved continuously for those 170 years, so that is probably where the flaw is. Going under the same assumption that 99% of their time is spent fighting other races, that leaves their scans with a range of less than two years. This is obviously incorrect. Therefore, we can conclude that the Ur-Quan spent a lot more than 1% of their total time moving and gathering fuel, which would decrease the size of their fleet-sphere determined in my previous conclusion. This significantly decreases the radius their forces cover during their migration.

Regardless of this fact, the non-civilized species would still be missed, as the Ur-Quan's four-year radious could not possibly cover a wide-enough area to detect them all. Even if they did, life-bearing worlds without detectable civilisation could still hold races capable of creating such, so there are definitely a notable number of races out there, and that includes the Kohr-Ah side. Most likely, the majority of the civilized species would also have been 'missed', as the Ur-Quan would not have had the sensor radius to detect them, and they would certainly not be going back and forth between the galactic core and the galactic rim, zig-zagging in an attempt to get every race along the way. Remember, they were trying to meet up with their differently-colored brethren on the other side of the galaxy, enacting their doctrine in the process, not just enact their doctrine on half the galaxy before the big confrontation. I would say that the most likely truth of this matter is that, quite simply, both Ur-Quan sub-species cut a path through the galaxy, enacting their doctrines as they went whilst leaving the majority of the galaxy alone. There would still be plenty of unaffected species for the next journey, allowing them to repeat their doctrinal conflict again and again for countless more millenia.

So yeah, that would be that. Who knew, there are still a ton of free aliens left out there, who won't have any idea what fate they'll be spared if the Ur-Quan are successfully stopped here and now.
"Sentient life. We are the Ur-Quan. Independence is intolerable. Blah, blah, blah." - the Spathi High Council, Star Control II.

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by The Troglodyte » Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:19 pm

krulle wrote:Well, I do not have issues with the Kohr-Ah Marauders when using BumpingTool.
Unfortunately, I’ve had much difficulty when dealing with these guys -- I’m not very good at space combat. Sure, I can usually take one or two out, but in the end, I wind up taking casualties by a random blade or running into the planet.

During one of my next encounters, after I reset the game and tried again, I found myself near the planet at the beginning of the battle, so I took advantage of the situation by positioning my ship behind it and used the emergency warp to escape unscathed. The Kohr-Ah fired some blades at me, but the planet protected me from one and I warped out as the second one approached! Yeah, I like zero crew losses better.
krulle wrote:Also, I find it interesting, that the emergency warp unit can spend the extra energy to overcome an inertia and the gravity of the planet, without increasing the time needed to make the jump.
That was something I’d experimented with a while back, and I’ve even discovered you can come within centimeters (not literally in terms of actuality, but literally in terms of screen display) of the planet and you won’t budge! I assume this is due to the build-up of creating an entry point to traverse into HyperSpace, so during its initiation it’s like you’re in “flux”. You can even pass through the planet.
krulle wrote:At this point in game I often go to StarBase to have their scientists look over all the stuff you collected (especially the Syreen Pod - get a hidden cam installed or something like that ;) ),
Shame! Shame! :lol:
krulle wrote:[cont.] ditch the storage bays and outfit my BumpingTool to a pure war-RU-collector.
Quite efficient, you can collect a lot of RU that way. (But without Storage Bays I always wondered how the material got transported "home".)
And with the amount of bioinfo you have, you will have no need for any refueling at StarBase.
You’re absolutely right. The Vindicator’s primed and ready for a refit plus some upgrades; she may become reclassified from a starship to a warship! I’m even considering installing rear cannons!

As far as your observation of how to logically explain the debris manifest, perhaps the materials can be broken down by the Vindicator into raw energy and then kept in the power systems or something to that effect, which can then be transferred to the Starbase and used as resource units.
The Troglodyte wrote:I guess it was okay with the green Ur-Quan for the Kohr-Ah to go ahead and completely wipe out half of the galaxy, and if they win their little war, they can go ahead and cleanse the rest as well. Bummer.
Quasispatial wrote:Erm... that's not entirely correct. Both Ur-Quan sub-species have been going around the galaxy, yes, and the Kohr-Ah have been cleansing whatever life they encounter, yes... but they didn't travel 'round the galaxy in a zigzag path. It's more like they cleaned out a path from one side to the other, going around the galaxy. What they did not do was to go in towards the galactic core, then out again, then inwards, out for a bit and so on in order to cover all the empty space.
As crazy as it seems, I’ve really been looking forward to confronting the Ur-Quan duo head-on, since it gives us a chance to discuss more about the Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah. These guys are obviously the real adversaries of the game; the thralls are chump change by comparison.

As far as the galaxy ring migration stuff goes, I have some other opinions, but for now I’ll go ahead and offer that my Zelnick may have been exaggerating about the level of devastation going on throughout the galaxy, but he doesn’t exactly have the benefit of contemplation and hashing all of this stuff out in his mind; all he knows is it’s bad… really, really bad… and it might even be better for him to believe that this is on such a large scale that if the Ur-Quan aren’t stopped somehow, sooner or later there won’t be any life left to withstand them. So to him, it’s the nightmarish thought of scorched galaxy that plagues his thoughts. To some degree, he feels the weight of the entire universe is on his shoulders.

“We're talking about universal Armageddon!” - Dr. McCoy
Quasispatial wrote:In order for this to make any sense, they cannot have cleared half the galaxy each the first time they went through; there would be nothing left to carry out the doctrines on. Besides, it wouldn't make sense for them to move back and forth trying to clear half the galaxy each; they were moving around the galaxy in opposite directions, not clearing half a galaxy each, before meeting again to see who was strongest. Doing the latter thing would defeat the entire point of the doctrinal conflict, since no races would be left to subjugate/destroy, which sort of defeats the point of arguing over doctrines, seeing as the Ur-Quan would be more or less unchallenged by that point.
Are you suggesting that neither Ur-Quan wish to actually achieve their goals, whether it be sentient zoos or utter destruction? If so, that doesn’t make much sense to me. If there was some magic button that would encase/remove all sentient life in the galaxy, I’m thinking they’d push it.

I understand your point that both parties have a dispute as to which doctrine is the correct one, and their way of solving that problem is their own private civil war to make that determination, but I don’t think they're worried about becoming bored if they were ever to succeed. Who knows?... maybe they’d move on to Andromeda or some other far off galaxy and resume the doctrine there, but their twisted ideology of conquest is still their ultimate goal.

I’m still learning about our Quany friends, so there’s much I don’t know as of yet, but I find myself resisting the urge to grant either of them the presumption that any of their motives or the manner in which they carry out their plans are sound, logical, or with a purposeful achievement in mind... at least not from the position of sanity. In other words, so far they’ve given me no evidence to make me believe that they ever sat down and thought everything all through. I’ll elaborate:

It’s pretty clear to me they’re a faint shell of their former selves, and their condition, created by thousands of years of mental control and torture by the Dnyarri, followed by ungodly genetic manipulation, plus the tremendous grief and unbearable guilt of being forced to destroy entire civilizations, the deaths of billions, perhaps even trillions of innocent lives resting on their consciences, compounded even further by many years of self-torture by plugging things into their brains to experience unthinkable pain, has molded them into something completely different where words like society, civilization, or even sentience (to an extent) no longer apply.

It’s not as if they sit down and have conferences to figure out the best way to go about doing things. There's no Q & A sessions, no debates, no structured form of government, no vote... there’s not even a small portion of Ur-Quan opposition marching in protest that claim the doctrine isn’t fair... none that I can imagine anyway.

No, it’s much more simple than that: It’s a compulsion. A compulsion that they ALL share.

Their instinctive nature has completely taken over, and their hunter instincts mixed with their years of suffering has resulted in an alien race (note I use the singular) of maniacal, paranoid-to-the-extreme xenophobic psychopaths! I know they’ve been spliced and diced and whatnot into two different sub-species, but it seems to me that fundamentally, they are both really the same “species”, it’s just that one ethnicity of them prefers to keep things less messy.
Quasispatial wrote:I think I've rambled enough about this subject for now. I am curious to hear your response, if any.
Me too. :)


EDIT: paranoid-to-the-extreme (forgot the hyphens)
Last edited by The Troglodyte on Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by Quasispatial » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:15 am

The Troglodyte wrote:Are you suggesting that neither Ur-Quan wish to actually achieve their goals, whether it be sentient zoos or utter destruction? If so, that doesn’t make much sense to me. If there was some magic button that would encase/remove all sentient life in the galaxy, I’m thinking they’d push it.

I understand your point that both parties have a dispute as to which doctrine is the correct one, and their way of solving that problem is their own private civil war to make that determination, but I don’t think they're worried about becoming bored if they were ever to succeed. Who knows?... maybe they’d move on to Andromeda or some other far off galaxy and resume the doctrine there, but their twisted ideology of conquest is still their ultimate goal.

I’m still learning about our Quany friends, so there’s much I don’t know as of yet, but I find myself resisting the urge to grant either of them the presumption that any of their motives or the manner in which they carry out their plans are sound, logical, or with a purposeful achievement in mind... at least not from the position of sanity. In other words, so far they’ve given me no evidence to make me believe that they ever sat down and thought everything all through. I’ll elaborate:

It’s pretty clear to me they’re a faint shell of their former selves, and their condition, created by thousands of years of mental control and torture by the Dnyarri, followed by ungodly genetic manipulation, plus the tremendous grief and unbearable guilt of being forced to destroy entire civilizations, the deaths of billions, perhaps even trillions of innocent lives resting on their consciences, compounded even further by many years of self-torture by plugging things into their brains to experience unthinkable pain, has molded them into something completely different where words like society, civilization, or even sentience (to an extent) no longer apply.

It’s not as if they sit down and have conferences to figure out the best way to go about doing things. There's no Q & A sessions, no debates, no structured form of government, no vote... there’s not even a small portion of Ur-Quan opposition marching in protest that claim the doctrine isn’t fair... none that I can imagine anyway.

No, it’s much more simple than that: It’s a compulsion. A compulsion that they ALL share.

Their instinctive nature has completely taken over, and their hunter instincts mixed with their years of suffering has resulted in an alien race (note I use the singular) of maniacal, paranoid to the extreme xenophobic psychopaths! I know they’ve been spliced and diced and whatnot into two different sub-species, but it seems to me that fundamentally, they are both really the same “species”, it’s just that one ethnicity of them prefers to keep things less messy.
Quasispatial wrote:I think I've rambled enough about this subject for now. I am curious to hear your response, if any.
Me too. :)
Well, I didn't exactly say that their main goal isn't to carry out their doctrines. What I meant was that holding a doctrinal conflict when the doctrines were already carried out would be sort of... pointless. Their main goal is definitely the enactment of their respective doctrines, but if they were already enacted and the Ur-Quan were indeed undisputed throughout the galaxy, blasting each other to pieces in order to decide what to do with the nonexistant 'free' races wouldn't be the wisest move. To be fair though, I don't really think that they know what they are going to do if they actually manage to defeat the entire galaxy.
Then again, when you say it, I wouldn't put it past the Kohr-Ah to drag the Kzer-Za into another doctrinal conflict regardless. They'd both still want the Sa-Matra, that's for certain. The green Ur-Quan would perhaps realize the futility of it once the galaxy was already conquered, seeing as they are more intelligent than their black brethren, but there would really be quite little that they could do. If you're being shot at, you are going to shoot back eventually.

You bring up a good point regarding the sanity of the collective Ur-Quan consensus. I must admit, whether or not they are 'sane' depends highly on your definition of sanity. What is sanity, anyway? Are the Mycon sane? The Orz? The Pkunk? The Ilwrath? Is sanity fixed to a certain worldview or a certain way of thought? Are we all insane, just in different ways? How do you define sanity, anyway?
Really, I would say that the Ur-Quan are as sane as everyone else, just in a different manner than the rest of us. Instinct definitely has something to do it, but then again, does following your instincts make you sane or insane? Once you start really talking to them, progressing through the dialogue trees which are only really reachable through repeated encounters, you start to get a much better understanding of their way of thought, their reasoning behind it all. I won't mention any specifics, since doing so would undoubtedly be spoilers, but let's just say that there are still many things you do not know. There's a line of reasoning behind it, a justification if you will, twisted as it may seem from our perspective.

As for their doctrines, the basic concept is the same. Keep the other races of the galaxy in check in order to avoid ending up as slaves once more. All that differs is how far they're willing to go. The Kzer-Za were the more 'humane' of the two, I'd think. Though they chose to do unto others what had been done to them, garnering a host of slaves to do their bidding over the course of their doctrine, they still recognised that destroying the other races entirely would be wrong. From their doctrine, it is yet possible to undo what has been done. Not so much for the Kohr-Ah. Judging by the Spathi's mention of a 'long, complicated' legal document which the Kzer-Za had their slaves agree to, they ensnared their slaves in a tangled web of legal jumbo-mumbo in order to ensure that the other species remains subservient. The Kohr-Ah, being less intelligent by nature, couldn't really understand the stuff which the Kzer-Za forged and thus opted for a simpler approach: Wipe them out. All of them.
We all know what happened after that. Perhaps, if they'd waited a few years, sat down to talk and recover, the galaxy would have been a very different place today... but alas, they did not. Just as an example, suppose that they had decided that the reason for their failure was that they had too few allies? Allying with every reasonable race in the galaxy would leave them equally, if not more undisputably powerful on account of their network of allies as well as their formidable military strength. It's a curious thought-excersize, change something small and see how things would have changed. If they hadn't found the Dnyaari, the Chenjesu would probably have joined the Milieu when their natural hyperwave affinity allowed them to contact the extant members, and then who knows how things would have transpired?

Anyway, back on track. Both Ur-Quan sub-species definitely are of the Ur-Quan race. That's why they are called sub-species rather than being known as the separate Kohr-Ah and Kzer-Za species. At their core, they are all still Ur-Quan. I suppose their sub-species relationship could be compared to us and the neanderthals; both human sub-species, but homo sapiens and homo neanderthalensis are distinct nonetheless. Then again, the two were capable of cross-breeding, so who's to say that doesn't go for the Ur-Quan as well? If they could just get over their differences for a moment, maybe they could even merge back into one. Regretfully, I don't see that happening any time soon, but if the New Alliance defeats them... maybe that could be the incentive they need to start working together again.

Ach, I keep getting distracted by wierd tangents. It's probably best if I stop blabbering before this discussion goes into quasispace and disappears. Looking forward to hear your reply.
Last edited by Quasispatial on Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Sentient life. We are the Ur-Quan. Independence is intolerable. Blah, blah, blah." - the Spathi High Council, Star Control II.

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by krulle » Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:49 pm

"before this discussion goes into quasispace"....
Spoiler?


- I'm joking, since your name already includes "quasi", yet Troglodyte does not know of quasispace yet...
He needs to be the one carrying this discussion into quasispace...
;)

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Quasispatial
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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by Quasispatial » Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:57 pm

krulle wrote:"before this discussion goes into quasispace"....
Spoiler?


- I'm joking, since your name already includes "quasi", yet Troglodyte does not know of quasispace yet...
He needs to be the one carrying this discussion into quasispace...
;)
Yeah, I figured the double-meaning would grow clear for him in time. As for now... just let him think of it as a metaphor.
It shall be interesting to discuss different *times* once he learns what he needs from the Arilou...
"Sentient life. We are the Ur-Quan. Independence is intolerable. Blah, blah, blah." - the Spathi High Council, Star Control II.

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The Troglodyte
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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by The Troglodyte » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:02 am

krulle wrote:Question though: will the Kzer-Za provide a map of all imprisoned species and the battle-thralls left behind?
It may not even be necessary, the Kohr-Ah may be able to effectively scan for and identify Ur-Quan slave-shield technology with ease.
krulle wrote:If not, the imprisoned species might be on a large advantage when the Kohr-Ah continue through the "cleared" space of the Kzer-Za.
If this information had been on the table from the start, it would've been likely that most species in the last section of the travel path of the Kzer-Za would've chosen "imprisonment", and not "battle thrall" status instead.
Either that or until recently, none of the alien species they've encountered prior were deemed powerful enough to be included as thralls. I noticed the Ur-Quan didn't bring any thralls with them before conquering the Umgah. Another theory is that we live in our galaxy's equivalent of the "cradle of civlization" and they hadn't discovered very much in terms of sentient life until recently.
Quasispatial wrote:Let's expand on that bit about the chance of survivors, shall we. Since it took 20 000 years just to go around half the galaxy, it would be nigh-impossible to find and exterminate/subjugate them all. Even if we assume that 99% of the time was spent in battle with 'lesser' species (which is a very generous estimate, seeing as the galaxy in general is not as densely populated as the local sector) that still leaves them with 200 years of travel-time just to go from one end of the galaxy to the other, resource gathering and refuelling included. This would, in turn, mean that the galaxy's hyperspace radius in terms of a Dreadnought's travel-time is roughly 80-100 years from edge to core.
Seeing as the entirety of the Ur-Quan forces were able to reach the doctrinal conflict in a matter of just two years (derived from the fact that A: The Earthguard's Ilwrath contingent left roughly 18 years before the captain's arrival at Sol; B: The Great War between the Hierarchy and the Alliance took place roughly 20 years before the captain's arrival at Sol; and C: The Ilwrath were stated to have left "not long after the last Ur-Quan Dreadnought departed 'this' region of space". The conclusion of this would be that it took, at most, two years for the Ur-Quan to move their battle fleets to the doctrinal conflict), their physical ship presence would not have a diameter greater than that which a Dreadnought traverses in the span of four earthen years.

If we look at the fact that the Ur-Quan detected human radio transmissions as early as the 1940s, their reach for those scanners must be at least 170 years' worth, possibly more seeing as the detection depended on humans inventing radio rather than the Ur-Quan coming into range. However, that would mean that their scanners would detect things throughout almost the entire galaxy if they were to place them at the core of the galaxy, which obviously cannot be correct; the Ur-Quan could not have moved continuously for those 170 years, so that is probably where the flaw is. Going under the same assumption that 99% of their time is spent fighting other races, that leaves their scans with a range of less than two years. This is obviously incorrect. Therefore, we can conclude that the Ur-Quan spent a lot more than 1% of their total time moving and gathering fuel, which would decrease the size of their fleet-sphere determined in my previous conclusion. This significantly decreases the radius their forces cover during their migration.

Regardless of this fact, the non-civilized species would still be missed, as the Ur-Quan's four-year radious could not possibly cover a wide-enough area to detect them all. Even if they did, life-bearing worlds without detectable civilisation could still hold races capable of creating such, so there are definitely a notable number of races out there, and that includes the Kohr-Ah side. Most likely, the majority of the civilized species would also have been 'missed', as the Ur-Quan would not have had the sensor radius to detect them, and they would certainly not be going back and forth between the galactic core and the galactic rim, zig-zagging in an attempt to get every race along the way. Remember, they were trying to meet up with their differently-colored brethren on the other side of the galaxy, enacting their doctrine in the process, not just enact their doctrine on half the galaxy before the big confrontation. I would say that the most likely truth of this matter is that, quite simply, both Ur-Quan sub-species cut a path through the galaxy, enacting their doctrines as they went whilst leaving the majority of the galaxy alone. There would still be plenty of unaffected species for the next journey, allowing them to repeat their doctrinal conflict again and again for countless more millenia.

So yeah, that would be that. Who knew, there are still a ton of free aliens left out there, who won't have any idea what fate they'll be spared if the Ur-Quan are successfully stopped here and now.
Impressive. You've obviously done your homework, so I won't dismiss it with simple conjecture. As Death 999 mentioned before, the region of space our game inhabits is a very small portion of our galaxy, which gives credence to the idea that there was much of the galaxy that was likely overlooked. I need to do some more research before formulating any further theories or ideas, but you present some convincing arguments, and I probably need to gather more information from the Ur-Quan foes and/or other aliens as well, so I'll defer to your reasoning for the time being, but I'll certainly bookmark this for further discussion later. ;)
Quasispatial wrote:Well, I didn't exactly say that their main goal isn't to carry out their doctrines. What I meant was that holding a doctrinal conflict when the doctrines were already carried out would be sort of... pointless. Their main goal is definitely the enactment of their respective doctrines, but if they were already enacted and the Ur-Quan were indeed undisputed throughout the galaxy, blasting each other to pieces in order to decide what to do with the nonexistant 'free' races wouldn't be the wisest move. To be fair though, I don't really think that they know what they are going to do if they actually manage to defeat the entire galaxy.
Thanks for the clarification. You're right, both Ur-Quans aren't probably focused on the actual completion, but rather the task at hand. In a manner of speaking, they go about their business the same way a doctor or police officer does -- neither profession ever expects to eliminate disease or crime, so it's likely the same mentality for the Ur-Quan.
Quasispatial wrote:Then again, when you say it, I wouldn't put it past the Kohr-Ah to drag the Kzer-Za into another doctrinal conflict regardless. They'd both still want the Sa-Matra, that's for certain. The green Ur-Quan would perhaps realize the futility of it once the galaxy was already conquered, seeing as they are more intelligent than their black brethren, but there would really be quite little that they could do. If you're being shot at, you are going to shoot back eventually.

[...]

As for their doctrines, the basic concept is the same. Keep the other races of the galaxy in check in order to avoid ending up as slaves once more. All that differs is how far they're willing to go. The Kzer-Za were the more 'humane' of the two, I'd think. Though they chose to do unto others what had been done to them, garnering a host of slaves to do their bidding over the course of their doctrine, they still recognised that destroying the other races entirely would be wrong. From their doctrine, it is yet possible to undo what has been done. Not so much for the Kohr-Ah. Judging by the Spathi's mention of a 'long, complicated' legal document which the Kzer-Za had their slaves agree to, they ensnared their slaves in a tangled web of legal jumbo-mumbo in order to ensure that the other species remains subservient. The Kohr-Ah, being less intelligent by nature, couldn't really understand the stuff which the Kzer-Za forged and thus opted for a simpler approach: Wipe them out. All of them.
I've just recently learned about the existence of the Sa-Matra from the Kohr-Ah, but I don't have to much else to go on for now. One thing I'm sure of is it's the weapon Commander Hayes feared existed, but I'll need to learn more on that subject before we talk more about it in more detail.

I agree that the green are probably more intelligent, but by how much? The black have to do everything themselves while the Kzer-Za have slaves. Hmmm, does this mean the Kohr-Ah have achieved greater cooperation than their counterparts and have learned to work together as a group? Their ships have a large crew, but they have no thralls, so are they filled only with Kohr-Ah then? That would seem... significant.

It also makes me wonder why the Ur-Quan don't use their thralls against the Kohr-Ah. I'm sure it's their code of honor or something, but if they really feel their doctrine is the correct one, then what better example is there than saying, "See there? When you enslave the aliens, you can have them fight your battles for you, so our way is better."
Quasispatial wrote:You bring up a good point regarding the sanity of the collective Ur-Quan consensus. I must admit, whether or not they are 'sane' depends highly on your definition of sanity. What is sanity, anyway? Are the Mycon sane? The Orz? The Pkunk? The Ilwrath? Is sanity fixed to a certain worldview or a certain way of thought? Are we all insane, just in different ways? How do you define sanity, anyway?
Really, I would say that the Ur-Quan are as sane as everyone else, just in a different manner than the rest of us. Instinct definitely has something to do it, but then again, does following your instincts make you sane or insane? Once you start really talking to them, progressing through the dialogue trees which are only really reachable through repeated encounters, you start to get a much better understanding of their way of thought, their reasoning behind it all. I won't mention any specifics, since doing so would undoubtedly be spoilers, but let's just say that there are still many things you do not know. There's a line of reasoning behind it, a justification if you will, twisted as it may seem from our perspective.
Yes, it's definitely all about perspective. And what better way is there to gain context of perspective than hyperbole? For example...

...I can imagine another captain, Ferdinand Magellan, mortally wounded by a poison arrow and staring back at the shores of the Phillipines from his ship, helplessly watching as members of his crew are getting hacked up into little bits by the natives. He probably didn't feel that those people were sane as he watched them throw hunks of his crew's flesh into the air, trying to catch the pieces in their mouths. Praying Mantis are known to eat their own, but that's ok because they're insects. It's a different story when a person does it though, although that early 16th century island tribe would've disagreed. So would Dahmer.

An Ilwrath youth that's too friendly is taken in for psychiatric evaluations and coaxed to torture something like a good boy. Mycon that think Juffo-Wup is overrated are put in refrigerators. 7 of 9 was a high-value target of the Borg. Perhaps brave Spathi are shunned... I don't know.

The only thing I understand is how I evaluate their actions based on my own value system, so from my perspective, any aliens that seek out life to enslave, torture, or eliminate them all qualify as insane to me, since my definition of sanity involves the ability to differentiate between right from wrong, so therefore any person, group or even an entire species that represents a detachment from being able to perform murderous acts without remorse is how I define insanity. Yes, I may have my sympathies for them, the same I would for a mother who drowns her children and claims God told her to do it. I may feel sorry for her, but that in itself still changes nothing. Simply put, they're all monsters in my book.
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” ― Khan Noonien Singh

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