About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

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The Troglodyte
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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by The Troglodyte » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:47 am

palmpet wrote:Sorry I'm late Trog! Congrats man! This has been a long time coming and you didn't disappoint! Your first contact with any given race was always a highlight! Also a while back I tried to direct you to Algol because of that one obscure line of dialgoue, if you haven't guessed by now, there isn't actually anything there for you to find. I was just trying to feed you a little Red Herring heh.
Thanks for the congratulations, palmpet! This has certainly been a long path, but I was fortunate to have so many people join alongside down this yellow brick road to finally get to see the wizard (the exception being of course that once I found the wizard… I blew him up!) Also, your hint was tempting, and I remember considering it when I went to go see the Druuge for the first time, but the way they drew me in with their salesmanship distracted me from ever checking Algol out, but it’s good to know I didn’t miss anything anyway!

Also, a little fun fact, in the game Starflight (often referred to as this game’s predecessor) there is an actual artifact called the Red Herring, but it’s so big it won’t fit in your terrain vehicle!
Elestan wrote:If you would like the full list of Rainbow Worlds, it can be found here.
Thanks, but I’m actually planning on finding them all for myself during my next playthrough, where I plan on experimenting with all of the things I missed out on the first time through.
Elestan wrote:Err...I think I might dispute the use of "quickly". You spent a long time resource-gathering. :-)
Touché Elestan!
Elestan wrote: In case you want to see the highest-profit locations, I extracted a detailed list of every planet from the game data a while back, and put it into sortable wiki form here.
Tempting.
Elestan wrote:You've surely earned the record for longest playthrough...now I'd be interested to see how quickly you can pull off a win!
Challenge accepted!
krulle wrote:Then this deserves a COWABUNGA!

Anyway, I also wanted to know how you liked the "cut-out" scenes?
The sequel ideas hinted at in the end credits?
Written by some space-bored avians? How it'll all be about one Druuge? With a VERY revealing costume? Directed by the Neo-Dnyarri?
Sponsored by the PKUNKRA-line: Just call 1-900-PKUNKRA. That's 1-900-PKUNKRA, 24 hours a day! Only two bucks per minute. (children under 18 must have parental permission before calling.)

I loved it, with all the different details, some in-character (Frungy!), some clearly off-character (being actors),
it are in my opinions the very best game-credits I've ever seen. And a real good reason to actually let them run.
The only thing disappointing in the ending credits was that there weren’t any voiceovers, but I did find it all very amusing, even though most of everyone’s comments seemed to lean towards self-absorption, as if the next game was going to focus on them.

Also, another tidbit I’d like to share is that one of the first times I confronted the guards and Sa-Matra, I had it set to cyborg, which worked fine against the guardians, but when you hit “converse” at the Sa-Matra screen in cyborg mode, it changes the Dnyarri’s dialogue (to not include the shield generator strategy) and then jumps directly to the end, which was the most anticlimatic ending ever, so that’s why I didn’t mention it until now.
Elestan wrote:Just for your easier reference:
all in-game quotes can easily be found here: http://www.sa-matra.net/quotes/
I also like this map, where you can select the stars according to bio-data, minerals, artifacts, races, ... spoiler/non-spoiler... Alas, my employers filter has recently added the site to non-allowed.
Interesting. Such a vast number of places to explore. I may have said this before, but I wish they would’ve incorporated some random artifacts scattered about the cosmos which perhaps could’ve been traded to the Melnorme or Druuge. It would’ve added an element of surprise instead of most every item needing importance, and they could’ve added minor or temporary improvements to one of your ships, much in the same way Precursor artifacts did in Star Control 1. Even if they did nothing at all, it’s still fun to stumble upon something new. Sometimes adding a bit of irrelevancy can contribute to overall relevancy.[/throwpillow quote]
Borgie wrote: Congratulations Troglodyte!

I'm a bit late to the *party*, but I knew you could do it!

Speaking of being late, I've still got a lot of catching up to do. I'm still on page 46. I think your excessive time travel set me back 100 pages.

Thanks Borgie! And I hope you enjoy your read-through (which I must admit is a challenge in itself!) and feel free to callback to anything you discover.
Tormuse wrote:Hey! Congratulations on your victory! :D It's been a long time coming! :) (Over four and a half years? Wow!) :o You've brought some new life to this community in your time and you've been fun to follow. :)
I’m so glad you had a good time Tormuse! Your comments and input have always brought a big smile to my face :D
Tormuse wrote:If you want a suggestion of a ridiculous way to play the game, check out the time I tried to win without ever visiting the Earth starbase! :D (Note: I don't actually recommend you try this) :P
Wow! That sounds absolutely ridiculous! How can you even defend yourself? Well, ok, so there’s Fwiffo, and the 4 ships from the Pkunk, and Melnorme for fuel, but what about the Slyandro?! And those pathetic beginning engines! I'm going to have to check this out for sure and see how you pulled it off!
Are you planning to do a similar playthrough of Star Control 3? Obviously, you should expect a considerable step down in quality, but it would be interesting to see your take on it anyway. :) (It's a pretty Universally hated game, but I still think it had some good ideas for tying up some of the loose ends in SC2) :)

Well, I’m of course planning on taking a break for a while, (and replaying SC2 a few more times ;) ) but I think I would eventually like to do a playthrough of SC3, and it would be in similar fashion, and with everyone’s angst towards it, I could even change it up a little, perhaps with more wit and silliness than ever before to balance the frustration I’ve heard concerning many aspects of that game. ;D-smf
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” ― Khan Noonien Singh

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by palmpet » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:55 am

Honestly Star Control 3 will make a whole lot more sense with the context of you having screwed with time a lot heh.
"What's the point in being grown-up if you can't be childish sometimes."

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by krulle » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:02 am

The Troglodyte wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:47 am
The only thing disappointing in the ending credits was that there weren’t any voiceovers, but I did find it all very amusing, even though most of everyone’s comments seemed to lean towards self-absorption, as if the next game was going to focus on them.

Also, another tidbit I’d like to share is that one of the first times I confronted the guards and Sa-Matra, I had it set to cyborg, which worked fine against the guardians, but when you hit “converse” at the Sa-Matra screen in cyborg mode, it changes the Dnyarri’s dialogue (to not include the shield generator strategy) and then jumps directly to the end, which was the most anticlimatic ending ever, so that’s why I didn’t mention it until now.
Heh, Since I never used Cyborg mode, I never found that out.
The cut-outs don't have voice-overs, as they were made for the PC, and have not been included in the 3DO version, which received voice overs.
UQM is based on the 3DO version.
There are also text passages missing in the 3DO version, some very important, like the location of the Mycon homeworld. (The Mycon tell you about it when you get to the wrong planet and try to tell them of a juicy planet.)
The UQM-team reintroduced these cutouts, and when playing without voice-over, the missing conversations.
The 3DO had an ending video, which is copyrighted, and hence not directly included in the UQM download packages.
You can find the files somewhere online, to include them in the game.
But you could also watch them on youtube: intro, ending video. (for completeness: the ship videos)

The Troglodyte wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:47 am
Krulle wrote:Just for your easier reference:
all in-game quotes can easily be found here: http://www.sa-matra.net/quotes/
I also like this map, where you can select the stars according to bio-data, minerals, artifacts, races, ... spoiler/non-spoiler... Alas, my employers filter has recently added the site to non-allowed.
Interesting. Such a vast number of places to explore. I may have said this before, but I wish they would’ve incorporated some random artifacts scattered about the cosmos which perhaps could’ve been traded to the Melnorme or Druuge. It would’ve added an element of surprise instead of most every item needing importance, and they could’ve added minor or temporary improvements to one of your ships, much in the same way Precursor artifacts did in Star Control 1. Even if they did nothing at all, it’s still fun to stumble upon something new. Sometimes adding a bit of irrelevancy can contribute to overall relevancy.[/throwpillow quote]
There are random artifacts, like Wimbli's Trident.
But not scattered on planets.
SC:Origins contains many of those. To a degree that's faulty again. There are nearly no planets without artifacts or crashed ships....

But as a challenge, you could try to see how many missions you could dispense with and still win within the given time-limit.
(2 spoilers: the resurrection of the Shofixti is not necessary, but without it no Yehat revolution, and without that no Pkunk bonus ships when fighting the Sa-Matra;
repairing the Ultron is necessary, without it no bomb, no bomb also means the Neo-Dnyarri will not use its powers to distract the guards, hence you will not be able to actually attack the Sa-Matra.

Other obvious non-necessary missions I'll leave for you to find out.)


Regarding SC3: I never found it that bad. I liked the story, and that you could found new colonies, thus creating a network of refill stations for your ship. But you could also get stranded without fuel...
The map was disorienting. (rotating 3D-map)
The gameplay was.... buggy.
Certain actions caused a lock-up, and in some casses the hints were not clear enough what you had to do, I had to use a playthrough guide in two instances (once I got to the case that a certain action never happened, because I did two previous ones in the wrong order, and the other I never got the hint...)
But some of the loose ends being explained in SC3 are quite good, and I liked the XChagger's hosts.
But I disliked some of the new races, I cannot understand how any space-faring race could get there and be that... gullible? stupid?
And I disliked the way the races were depicted (puppets), and that some races were left out (my favourite Supox were missing in-game!). But I understand the IP issues behind it, and why Accolade tried to move away from the IP world of Fred and Paul.

Oh, and get used to the most horrible "hint" system ever.
ICom online.


(Although I always found the hint system in SC2 extensive. The Melnorme give away everything, depending on your order of play some hints far too late, some too early, making you skip the dialogues with the native races to work yourself towards the hint. I found the "current" information of the Mael-Num too cheap.)

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by The Troglodyte » Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:18 am

palmpet wrote:Honestly Star Control 3 will make a whole lot more sense with the context of you having screwed with time a lot heh.
I will keep that under advisement. If I were to do a SC3 playthrough, I would of course unrepentantly use all available built-in game mechanics to my advantage.
krulle wrote:There are random artifacts, like Wimbli's Trident.

To me that doesn’t seem very random. I mean random as in you just so happen to stumble upon one, like I used to in Starflight, SC1, Mass Effect, Uncharted, etc.. Little treasures that have no real impact on the story but a nice little keepsake that you find merely by mere happenstance or rewarded thoroughness.
krulle wrote:But not scattered on planets.
SC:Origins contains many of those. To a degree that's faulty again. There are nearly no planets without artifacts or crashed ships....
Yeah, that seems excessive if it’s as you describe. It’s nice to find one every now and then, but if they’re littered around like spilled jelly beans than it takes away from the rewarding effect.
krulle wrote:But as a challenge, you could try to see how many missions you could dispense with and still win within the given time-limit.
(2 spoilers: the resurrection of the Shofixti is not necessary, but without it no Yehat revolution, and without that no Pkunk bonus ships when fighting the Sa-Matra;
repairing the Ultron is necessary, without it no bomb, no bomb also means the Neo-Dnyarri will not use its powers to distract the guards, hence you will not be able to actually attack the Sa-Matra.
Other obvious non-necessary missions I'll leave for you to find out.)
Now he covers his spoilers. hehe. I’ll definitely explore their existence and how you can win in more exciting and challenging ways, but I’m more interested in seeing the things I missed, like the other Caster in Arcturus and swindling the Druuge out of fuel with a Vindicator with 1 crew pod and nothing else but fuel tanks! Now that’s my idea of fun!
krulle wrote:Regarding SC3: I never found it that bad. I liked the story, and that you could found new colonies, thus creating a network of refill stations for your ship. But you could also get stranded without fuel...
The map was disorienting. (rotating 3D-map)
The gameplay was.... buggy.
Certain actions caused a lock-up, and in some casses the hints were not clear enough what you had to do, I had to use a playthrough guide in two instances (once I got to the case that a certain action never happened, because I did two previous ones in the wrong order, and the other I never got the hint...)
But some of the loose ends being explained in SC3 are quite good, and I liked the XChagger's hosts.
But I disliked some of the new races, I cannot understand how any space-faring race could get there and be that... gullible? stupid?
And I disliked the way the races were depicted (puppets), and that some races were left out (my favourite Supox were missing in-game!). But I understand the IP issues behind it, and why Accolade tried to move away from the IP world of Fred and Paul.

Oh, and get used to the most horrible "hint" system ever.
ICom online..
What? Puppets?! Never mind, I’m out.

Just kidding. Considering the numerous problems, this would probably be one of those games where I wouldn’t mind if somebody jumping in and warning me of dumb game glitches or things of that nature, especially if bad things can occur through no fault of your own.
krulle wrote:(Although I always found the hint system in SC2 extensive. The Melnorme give away everything, depending on your order of play some hints far too late, some too early, making you skip the dialogues with the native races to work yourself towards the hint. I found the "current" information of the Mael-Num too cheap.)
In hindsight, it could actually be considered a flaw, since they are pointed to by Hayes so early, they are very near to Sol, and their technologies make lifeform gathering a must, and especially since that becomes relatively easy as you go along, so cashing in on the information is just too easy to pass up, and then the treasure of info flows in so readily, it kind of takes away from natural progression. Seriously, unless you’re a kid, I’d recommend anybody playing the game for the first time to use the Melnorme for technology and fuel, but that’s it. It will make for a more interesting game when you’re forced to learn the game’s secrets for yourself.
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” ― Khan Noonien Singh

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by Elestan » Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:47 am

The Troglodyte wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:18 am
I’m more interested in seeing the things I missed, like the other Caster in Arcturus and swindling the Druuge out of fuel with a Vindicator with 1 crew pod and nothing else but fuel tanks! Now that’s my idea of fun!
If you want to do it with style, you should have 16 high-capacity fuel tanks, and not more than 1 fuel left when you make the deal.

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by Quasispatial » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:49 pm

The Troglodyte wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:18 am
What? Puppets?! Never mind, I’m out.

Just kidding. Considering the numerous problems, this would probably be one of those games where I wouldn’t mind if somebody jumping in and warning me of dumb game glitches or things of that nature, especially if bad things can occur through no fault of your own.
Trust me, that Syreen puppet is the stuff of nightmares.

The DakTakLakPak are actually pretty neat though. Fun to listen to, in a way.
"Sentient life. We are the Ur-Quan. Independence is intolerable. Blah, blah, blah." - the Spathi High Council, Star Control II.

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by Tormuse » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:57 pm

The Troglodyte wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:47 am
Wow! That sounds absolutely ridiculous! How can you even defend yourself? Well, ok, so there’s Fwiffo, and the 4 ships from the Pkunk, and Melnorme for fuel, but what about the Slyandro?! And those pathetic beginning engines! I'm going to have to check this out for sure and see how you pulled it off!
Needless to say, you have to get really good at killing Probes with Fwiffo. :P
The Troglodyte wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:18 am
...and swindling the Druuge out of fuel with a Vindicator with 1 crew pod and nothing else but fuel tanks! Now that’s my idea of fun!
Think bigger. No crew pods. 16 High-efficiency fuel systems. :)
The Troglodyte wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:18 am
Just kidding. Considering the numerous problems, this would probably be one of those games where I wouldn’t mind if somebody jumping in and warning me of dumb game glitches or things of that nature, especially if bad things can occur through no fault of your own.
Yeah, what got me in my first playthrough of SC3 was that a lot of significant events are based on how much in-game time has passed and I had been playing with the speed turned all the way down. I actually had time to explore every single star system in the game and had no clue what to do next, when what I should have done was turn the speed up and wait for the game to play itself. :P
The Troglodyte wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:18 am
Seriously, unless you’re a kid, I’d recommend anybody playing the game for the first time to use the Melnorme for technology and fuel, but that’s it. It will make for a more interesting game when you’re forced to learn the game’s secrets for yourself.
Hmm... that could be an interesting challenge. :) Suddenly, I feel like trying to see if I can play the game, only acting on information from sources other than the Melnorme. Or for an extra challenge, attack the Melnorme at the beginning, so I can never get their technology or fuel either! (They're actually pretty forgiving, even if you attack them, and I'm sure such a challenge has been done before, but still, it could be interesting) :D



Oh, and on a completely different note, I just remembered, now we can tell you what would have been the result of your "cryogenic mission" back in the day. :) After enough in-game time passes, the Kohr-Ah win their war against the Kzer-Za and they start traveling around, killing everyone. (Commonly referred to as the Kohr-Ah death march) Their sphere of influence actually goes around the starmap and the sphere of influence of every other race shrinks down to nothing, one by one until they're all dead except the Ur-Quan, and then they reach Earth and the game ends. The reason people were urging you not to do your cryogenic mission is that 1) you wouldn't see anything, (you hadn't met any other races, so you wouldn't notice them dying) and 2) if you did happen to encounter the Kohr-Ah, it wouldn't make any sense to you, because they would be going on about winning the "Doctinal War" when you hadn't heard anything about it.

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by Elestan » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:36 pm

The Troglodyte wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:47 am
Tormuse wrote:If you want a suggestion of a ridiculous way to play the game, check out the time I tried to win without ever visiting the Earth starbase! :D (Note: I don't actually recommend you try this) :P
Wow! That sounds absolutely ridiculous! How can you even defend yourself? Well, ok, so there’s Fwiffo, and the 4 ships from the Pkunk, and Melnorme for fuel, but what about the Slyandro?!
It's even worse than you think. If the player enters Hyperspace before getting the Starbase up and running, the game spawns Probes at fifty times the normal rate (1/day). This was a deliberate attempt by the designers to force the player to stay on track. A no-starbase win was impossible in the original SC2, because the game would crash when the Chmmr tried to install the crystal amplifier. UQM implemented logic to deal with this situation, and some players have pulled off a no-Starbase win. It generally involves shameless exploitation of save-scummning combined with Pkunk ressurection to replentish crew.

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by Tormuse » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:22 pm

The Troglodyte wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:47 am
Elestan wrote:You've surely earned the record for longest playthrough...now I'd be interested to see how quickly you can pull off a win!
Challenge accepted!
I'm sure this discussion has come up before, but it's the kind of mental exercise that appeals to me... :) so I'm considering what's the minimum needed to win the game.

The three basic things you need are...

1) The Utwig bomb, (to blow up the Sa-Matra)
2) the Dnyarri, (to distract the Ur-Quan)
3) the Chmmr. (To enhance the bomb)

1) The Utwig bomb requires the most travel out of you, going to all four corners of the Starmap for the parts, even though getting the parts themselves is (mostly) fairly easy. The Pkunk and Supox hand over their parts willingly, and you can get the Aqua Helix from the Thraddash by sending them at the Kohr-Ah. The only challenging one to get is the Rosy Sphere from the Druuge, which requires either trading the free Burvix Caster, or enduring the dangers of acquiring Mycon Deep-Child egg case fragments. (Or just trading crew, but who wants to do that?) :P After that, there's the battle with the five Druuge Maulers guarding the bomb, but I've discovered that the Earthling Cruiser is surprisingly effective against them, so you wouldn't even need to upgrade anything to defeat them. :)

2) For the Dnyarri, get the the Taalo shield, (which is effortless) then face down the ten Umgah ships at their homeworld. (Which can either be pretty easy or pretty hard) They have few hitpoints, but they can be pretty hard to hit sometimes, and their zipping ability can make them pretty unpredictable. There's also the non-intuitive step that you have to visit the Arilou homeworld. If you don't do that, the Dnyarri never wakes up.

3) Releasing the Chmmr is easily the most challenging of the three main steps... and I'm gonna have to finish this later, because my workplace wants me to work now. :P
Last edited by Tormuse on Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by krulle » Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:02 pm

visit the Arilou, to hear about the talking pet.

3) you'll need the sun device, for which you need to know about the Mycon deep-children, tobe able to lure the Mycon into the Syreen trap.

And getting the Ur-Quan pod from that fiery planet is very beneficial, to increase your travel speed a lot (for the portal spawner). You're too slow, and too easily boxed in otherwise by the aliens and the probes, and you would just get stuck between hyperspace and battles., thus not meeting the requirmemt of being in-time.

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