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 Post subject: Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:27 pm 
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krulle wrote:
As you can guess, the reasons for their migration will again remain unaltered, and they'll await the end of the Year of the Swollen Moon, just to be safe.

I figured as much, but I'd still prefer to see how it all unfolds for myself. ;)

krulle wrote:
However, we do not know how long a Year of the Swollen Moon is.

Darn. I guess I'm being overly optimistic for hoping it would be a standard earth year. The Chenjesu probably should've also standardized time interval units when they manufactured the current starmaps.

krulle wrote:
It might better to follow other leads. Like persuading the Yehat to not kill the Pkunk when they come. You have received some leads in that direction.
Appeal to the honour of the proud warriors. Your previous tries in that regard gave you some information on the persuading reason(s) they might need.

Of course. The Yehat will obviously be the key or catalyst (for better or worse) to this problem, but I'm still not sure how it will all transpire after I follow up on those leads. I need more information.

“Insufficient facts always invites danger.” - Spock, Star Trek, "Space Seed"

krulle wrote:
But sitting like a duck in the cryogenic chamber will not solve the other leads into information you may be able to use for your penultimate goal, the liberation of Earth and the defeat of the Ur-Quan.
(Even though you will never have sat in the cryogenic chamber after all. But later you will still need to fly up and down the local sector of the galaxy to solve crisis happening, and knowing how often you may find persuasive reasons to ask the Pkunk to abort their homecoming may not be as helpful as you think.)
(In my very first game, I sent them back home ONCE, after that I was able to finish during their second migration.)

I guess that's what's the most confusing to me as it concerns the Pkunk. Most of everything I've learned has allowed me to piece many of the puzzles together, at least to the point where I can speculate with reasonable assumption what will logically occur once I explore those avenues.

It was fairly simple to determine the situation between the Mycon and Syreen with moderate conjecture, as well as discovering the Umgah 'Caster after the Spathi performed their self-slave-shielding act; my anticipation of the unveiling artifact was already there. Likewise it's pretty easy to connect the dots between Tanaka, the Shofixti females that ZEX has, the creature he wants, as well as what impact this will all likely have on the Yehat.

:? However, this Pkunk migration pattern has me somewhat perplexed. I'm not really sure how they fit into the equation, or how to prevent their demise. Therefore, even though I know it's a little bit controversial in terms of gameplay manipulation, I've decided to perform these cryogenic experiments. I'm merely trying to gather any information I can so I'll know what I'm up against... or at least how long I have to figure it out! :)

I also fear that I may have been too hasty when I turned the Pkunk around the first time. I've noticed that it takes them a good while to complete their journey, so that's why I've experimented with how long it actually takes them to go back and forth, and the lapse duration in between trips.

_________________
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” - Khan Noonien Singh


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 Post subject: Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:20 pm 
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I believe I have already tried to talk you out of long term experiments once, with the Metchron. All of those arguments still apply, with the additional caveat that everything else is still going to continue to progress at normal pace despite you focusing on this one aspect of galactic politics. So eventually, if you keep this up long enough, you'll also find out what will destroy the Metachron as well, but it's still better if you let that develop organically rather than just doing it for the lulz.

Basically, performing this experiment is going to spoil you on a few things that are better left as surprises. So don't do it! The Pkunk will be fine on their own for a while.


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 Post subject: Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:20 pm 
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Plus, how long HAVE you tried to jump back at once? Are you sure you can? (in-universe question, obviously)


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 Post subject: Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:40 pm 
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Draxas wrote:
I believe I have already tried to talk you out of long term experiments once, with the Metchron. All of those arguments still apply, with the additional caveat that everything else is still going to continue to progress at normal pace despite you focusing on this one aspect of galactic politics. So eventually, if you keep this up long enough, you'll also find out what will destroy the Metachron as well, but it's still better if you let that develop organically rather than just doing it for the lulz.

Basically, performing this experiment is going to spoil you on a few things that are better left as surprises. So don't do it! The Pkunk will be fine on their own for a while.

In the back of my mind I could just picture you objecting to my decision to perform experiments such as this one. And look at the result! Indeed... how predictable! ;) You see, I've noticed on several occasions anytime I've deviated from normal, linear gameplay is usually right about the time when I receive subtle grievances from you as well as others. I also want you to know that I understand and I recognize that your points are valid too, and I respect your position. Unless your true reason is you are opposed to the process of cryogenic freezing altogether, I also believe I know why you feel the way you do, even though you've mentioned repeatedly that it's because of the spoilery that I may uncover.

I think it's actually deeper than that, and much more admirable. I really don't know how to describe it other than saying it's all about remaining "true to the game". Everything else seems secondary, even if that means running into setbacks or even failure. It's all about playing the game the way it was meant to be played. Am I right? I can follow that line of reasoning, and I'll even go as far to say that I agree with that kind of viewpoint. (Uh-oh, here comes the 'but'...)

But... I am a scientist. Not a very good one, granted, but a scientist nonetheless. Sometimes to me it's not the end result that matters as much to me versus my desire to figure it out, and on my own terms. I'd much rather formulate a hypothesis and have that blow up in my face instead of prodding along in a normal fashion and hit a brick wall, or see disaster unfold that becomes unpreventable. I like to anticipate the problem, and then formulate a technique to attempt to solve it, which is why I've performed these cryogenic experiments in the first place. Please try to understand that sometimes I simply can't help myself. Sorry! :)

Also, if you recall, my gameplay manipulation tendencies have on numerous occasions been very helpful, as demonstrated early on by learning about the Pkunk and their whereabouts from the uncloaked Avenger captain, as well as discovering a possible significance of Delta Lyncis as mentioned by Fwiffo during my experimentation with his dialogue, which I had to learn by making threats and angering him.

I also have a bit of a confession to make, but you may find some of it comforting. Usually when I write my logs I'm doing so as I play the game, and so what you're reading is shortly following what I've encountered, as I originally intended when I began this shared grand adventure. However, recently I've been doing some of my exploring and stuff a little ahead and then I'll go back and write my final logs afterwards for forum submission, since sometimes I find these to be good opportunities to write fun little stories on the side, and I've been doing so for the past few weeks with this particular set of events.

Suffice it to say, if you haven't already figured out, I've already conducted more of the experiments than you've been apprised as of yet, so some of the end results are now known to me -- I was going to write appropriate entries and then submit them accordingly in the near future. Furthermore, the source of the destruction of the MetaChron has not been revealed to me, but like the puzzle examples I mentioned earlier, it really isn't too difficult to ascertain why the Melnorme will leave this area of space before Greenish's pillow companion meets its (un-)timely destruction.

So don't worry Draxas, you can rest easy that none of my meddling with the Pkunk's actions has not ruined anything for my game. In fact, something was revealed to me during the course of my experiments that I may not have uncovered otherwise, and you may even find the revelation interesting.

Death 999 wrote:
Plus, how long HAVE you tried to jump back at once? Are you sure you can? (in-universe question, obviously)

:?: What? I'm afraid I don't understand your question, could you rephrase?

_________________
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” - Khan Noonien Singh


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 Post subject: Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:36 pm 
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I meant, did your character want to risk that a time marker would still be valid after N years had passed. There might be a range limit on the process, as far as he knows. That would be an in-game justification for not trying this. But if you're just going to go ahead anyway… okay, it's your game.


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 Post subject: Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:53 pm 
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The Troglodyte wrote:
I think it's actually deeper than that, and much more admirable. I really don't know how to describe it other than saying it's all about remaining "true to the game". Everything else seems secondary, even if that means running into setbacks or even failure. It's all about playing the game the way it was meant to be played. Am I right? I can follow that line of reasoning, and I'll even go as far to say that I agree with that kind of viewpoint. (Uh-oh, here comes the 'but'...)


It's this, but it's also more than this. All of us have likely played around with short term saves to explore branches in the dialog tree, for example, especially in cases like the first Ilwrath encounter where you can only ever officially see one answer and the options are never available again (I know I have, anyway). But it doesn't sit well with me when you go "off the rails", so to speak, to do little more than tinker with the underlying mechanics of the game, especially when it comes at the expense of the narrative, which I feel has always been the best part of the experience. It's like watching someone take a hammer to a masterwork clock, for the express purpose of examining the gears that make the cuckoo pop out; while those mechanisms are interesting to study on their own, in isolation, the fact remains that you've done so at the expense of the entire package.

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But... I am a scientist. Not a very good one, granted, but a scientist nonetheless. Sometimes to me it's not the end result that matters as much to me versus my desire to figure it out, and on my own terms. I'd much rather formulate a hypothesis and have that blow up in my face instead of prodding along in a normal fashion and hit a brick wall, or see disaster unfold that becomes unpreventable. I like to anticipate the problem, and then formulate a technique to attempt to solve it, which is why I've performed these cryogenic experiments in the first place. Please try to understand that sometimes I simply can't help myself. Sorry! :)


I am a scientist as well (professionally, even), so I understand completely. But the flip side of this coin is that this is, at the end of the day, a game, and an extremely well crafted one at that. My personal philosophy is that your first experience with a game like this one should be "pure"; no guides, no walkthroughs, no begging for help on the internet, just you immersing yourself in the world that the designers created and exploring. Thanks to the modern design philosophy of "autosaves all the time," this has also kind of mutated into a mistakes-be-damned attitude since there is no easy way to go back, but since this game features multiple save slots and the ability to save anywhere, you can even set it up so that you can reverse your errors. My point is, the game (and your old saves) will always be there, so you can go back any play with the "fiddly bits" that interest you once you've finished the game and seen what it has to offer. In the meantime, it's best to just experience the story and the world, without trying to abuse the mechanics. If there is any game that will get its hooks into you and leave you wanting to come back for more, it's this one.

Quote:
So don't worry Draxas, you can rest easy that none of my meddling with the Pkunk's actions has not ruined anything for my game. In fact, something was revealed to me during the course of my experiments that I may not have uncovered otherwise, and you may even find the revelation interesting.


I'd be curious to know just what that is, as nothing really jumps out at me thinking about it offhand. I mean, you've already said that you went through with it, so I suppose we'll find out in due time.


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 Post subject: Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:16 pm 
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Feel free to continue.
At least you're thorough exploration of the conversation trees and the like will uncover some bugs...

And it prolongues our pleasure of being allowed to read your reports.

So, like any advice having been sollicited on the internet: ignore as you wish.

I would not choose your path, but then I would also not choose the path of the Ur-Quan. (nor their sibling's path)


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 Post subject: Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:21 pm 
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Draxas wrote:
The Troglodyte wrote:
I think it's actually deeper than that, and much more admirable. I really don't know how to describe it other than saying it's all about remaining "true to the game". Everything else seems secondary, even if that means running into setbacks or even failure. It's all about playing the game the way it was meant to be played. Am I right? I can follow that line of reasoning, and I'll even go as far to say that I agree with that kind of viewpoint. (Uh-oh, here comes the 'but'...)

It's this, but it's also more than this. All of us have likely played around with short term saves to explore branches in the dialog tree, for example, especially in cases like the first Ilwrath encounter where you can only ever officially see one answer and the options are never available again (I know I have, anyway). But it doesn't sit well with me when you go "off the rails", so to speak, to do little more than tinker with the underlying mechanics of the game, especially when it comes at the expense of the narrative, which I feel has always been the best part of the experience. It's like watching someone take a hammer to a masterwork clock, for the express purpose of examining the gears that make the cuckoo pop out; while those mechanisms are interesting to study on their own, in isolation, the fact remains that you've done so at the expense of the entire package.

I find your sincerity and candidness refreshing, and your clock analogy makes perfect sense, but now I can’t help but picture a cuckoo clock, but instead of the regular cuckoo bird, I imagine it with a Pkunk flying out of the door hurling insults instead of “Cuckoo!”... And now that I’m thinking about it… somebody really needs to build one! “Fool!” “Moron!” “Idiot!” It must be 3 o’clock! :lol:

Draxas wrote:
The Troglodyte wrote:
But... I am a scientist. Not a very good one, granted, but a scientist nonetheless. Sometimes to me it's not the end result that matters as much to me versus my desire to figure it out, and on my own terms. I'd much rather formulate a hypothesis and have that blow up in my face instead of prodding along in a normal fashion and hit a brick wall, or see disaster unfold that becomes unpreventable. I like to anticipate the problem, and then formulate a technique to attempt to solve it, which is why I've performed these cryogenic experiments in the first place. Please try to understand that sometimes I simply can't help myself. Sorry! :)

I am a scientist as well (professionally, even), so I understand completely. But the flip side of this coin is that this is, at the end of the day, a game, and an extremely well crafted one at that. My personal philosophy is that your first experience with a game like this one should be "pure"; no guides, no walkthroughs, no begging for help on the internet, just you immersing yourself in the world that the designers created and exploring. Thanks to the modern design philosophy of "autosaves all the time," this has also kind of mutated into a mistakes-be-damned attitude since there is no easy way to go back, but since this game features multiple save slots and the ability to save anywhere, you can even set it up so that you can reverse your errors.
You're really a scientist? :ugeek: Now why am I not suprised? ;)

Although I’m not making any promises or anything, I will make a concerted effort to no longer perform any long-term experimentation, but there is another reason for why I did what I did. This will all become more clear when I post my logs, but let’s just say for now that I’ve concluded that there was no way I could venture out and explore the other leads (which will be taking me much further “upspin”) without the Pkunk meeting their doom.

Draxas wrote:
My point is, the game (and your old saves) will always be there, so you can go back any play with the "fiddly bits" that interest you once you've finished the game and seen what it has to offer. In the meantime, it's best to just experience the story and the world, without trying to abuse the mechanics. If there is any game that will get its hooks into you and leave you wanting to come back for more, it's this one.

That's the struggle I'm always dealing with, because I'm never completely sure when there's an aspect of the game that is a trivial matter or sidequest type thing, or something that is absolutely vital in completing the game. The game has done a fine job keeping some of these puzzles obscure and elusive.

But the idea of allowing the Pkunk to get slaughtered at the hands, uh...er, I mean... talons of the Yehat seems totally reprehensible to me. I've studied this problem quite a bit, and I keep coming back to the same thing where I'm telling myself, “Surely it's necessary to save the Pkunk in order to win the game.” Even if it isn't, it would seem an awful shame to let them all die. I'm hoping I can prevent that from happening, or at least beat the game before the Pkunk undo themselves.

Death 999 wrote:
I meant, did your character want to risk that a time marker would still be valid after N years had passed. There might be a range limit on the process, as far as he knows. That would be an in-game justification for not trying this. But if you're just going to go ahead anyway… okay, it's your game.

It's interesting that I'm usually trying to convey my experiences using what's available in-game to justify my actions, whereas you sometimes suggest I use in-game situations to justify not expressing certain things. Your suggestions are always appropriate, but they sometimes don’t quite fit my style.

krulle wrote:
Feel free to continue.
At least you're thorough exploration of the conversation trees and the like will uncover some bugs...
And it prolongues our pleasure of being allowed to read your reports.
So, like any advice having been sollicited on the internet: ignore as you wish.

I'm careful to stay true to myself when I receive feedback, but I always welcome and value everybody's opinion, even if we're not always in total agreement. That being said, everyone has shown a lot of patience with me in letting me go about things in an occasional wanton fashion, and I'm sure it can difficult at times as I stumble upon various parts of the story.

I think everyone understands the tremendous restraint I place on myself when playing the game. You can't know the number of times I've been tempted to, for example, drop everything and fly clear across the galaxy to Beta Corvi or Delta Lyncis and see what I find, but I must remain steadfast in my resolve, and I boil on the inside anytime I get close to a new discovery, which of course makes it all the more worthwhile! Excellence and happiness!! :D

I also have a healthy sense of accountability to the group, and on those same lines I feel obligated to always be truthful in my discoveries, even if it’s been accomplished by a game session of fleeting self-indulgence, and I’m sure everyone can appreciate the paradigm of honesty above everything, which is why I wish to share my Pkunk experimentation experiences.

Draxas wrote:
The Troglodyte wrote:
So don't worry Draxas, you can rest easy that none of my meddling with the Pkunk's actions has not ruined anything for my game. In fact, something was revealed to me during the course of my experiments that I may not have uncovered otherwise, and you may even find the revelation interesting.

I'd be curious to know just what that is, as nothing really jumps out at me thinking about it offhand. I mean, you've already said that you went through with it, so I suppose we'll find out in due time.

Stay tuned! :)

_________________
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” - Khan Noonien Singh


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 Post subject: Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:49 pm 
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But the idea of allowing the Pkunk to get slaughtered at the hands, uh...er, I mean... talons of the Yehat seems totally reprehensible to me. I've studied this problem quite a bit, and I keep coming back to the same thing where I'm telling myself, “Surely it's necessary to save the Pkunk in order to win the game.” Even if it isn't, it would seem an awful shame to let them all die. I'm hoping I can prevent that from happening, or at least beat the game before the Pkunk undo themselves.
This is a spoiler, and nothing more will be revealed here. It will be revealed in time, though. At Troglodyte's rate, that'll be around February 2019.
edit: No, I do not want to hint at how the Pkunk can (and likely will) be saved. Whether it is intentional that the Pkunk disappear, and that they even should disappear, or whether saving the Pkunk is the best outcome at all.

One remark, though, regarding the Pkunk. From the talk with the Pkunk about the Ilwrath you know that the creator of the Universe implemented the "good/bad" scale without a saveguard regarding wrapping the measurement numbers.
In programming, the shortINT (2byte Integer numbers) goes from -32768 to 32767.
Every programmer knows, and most engineers had some basic programming course, that adding one to the maximum of the INT range returns the minimum of the INT range (i.e. 32767+1=-32768). Have you ever considered that the Pkunk are Lemmings getting themself killed before this happens to them too?
The universe might be better off without these slightly weird and cuddly birds (formerly: of prey), before they start preying again.

Also ever thought about this quest being a "trap" intended to waste your time as much as possible?

Stay tuned! :)
We do.


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 Post subject: Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:11 pm 
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Captain’s Log - Apr 17, 2157 - HyperSpace {417.0:024.1} - Near Capella

We have arrived on the outside of Yehat territory so we shouldn’t have any encounters (some of which could possibly be hostile) with the Yehat patrols. Here we can stop and wait for the Pkunk to arrive. Hopefully we’ll somehow be able to convince them to turn around before it’s too late!... But I have no idea how to stop them!

I am entering the cryogenic chamber. Captain out.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Captain’s Log - Jul 1, 2157 - HyperSpace {412.8:028.5} - Near Capella

The Pkunk have finally arrived in the region, and just as before they are heading directly towards Gamma Krueger. We’ve ran out of viable excuses, so I ordered the communications officer to make up anything she could to convince the Pkunk to turn around. We had to try anything possible!! Here were some of the better ones:

“What if you left the oven on?... Or what about if you left the garage door open?”
“I spoke with the Yehat and they said they need more time to gather up plenty of grubs for the ‘Regurgitation Festival’ they’re preparing in your honor!”
“Some benign and loving, yet incredibly destructive and powerful force took the Ilwrath and simultaneously ripped off all of their legs and dropped their putrid egg sacs into steaming pools of molten metal! You’ve gotta check it out!”
“The Yehat have all migrated; they’re all on vacation in Triangulum! Try again next year... or maybe the year afterwards!”
“Uh... the Orz ate ‘em all.”
“The Yehat are all on their way migrating to Gamma Krueger to reunite with you! You must’ve just missed them along the way!”

Every time the excuse failed (which by the way was every time) I’d activate the time portal and have our communications officer attempt again with another feeble rationale for them to turn their tail feathers, until finally we were exhausted of all possible excuses.

I’ve ordered the helm to take us toward Epsilon Caeli and we can monitor the Pkunk’s movements and determine when they will meet their fateful end. Zelnick out.
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Captain’s Log - Dec 21, 2157 - HyperSpace {446.0:024.1} - Near Theta Serpentis

The Pkunk have done themselves in... again. We are heading into Yehat space to see if we can uncover any more valuable information before I use the time portal again to make a 3rd attempt.

We have detected some Yehat ships nearby and we’ve plotted an intercept course. Captain out.
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Captain’s Log - Dec 23, 2157 {466.8:037.3} - Near Iota Serpentis - Red Alert

The Yehat showed no remorse for the deaths of the numerous Pkunk, which is anybody’s guess to how many of them perished meaninglessly? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions even? We were never able to determine how many Pkunk departed their home stars to find their new space grave, but it appeared to be mostly all of them. How sad. This is all the Yehat to say about the matter:

YEHAT – “The Pkunk have been absorbed. They are no more. This is how it should be. Now the matter is settled, human. Do not be bringing it up again...

Troubling. Zelnick out.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_________________
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” - Khan Noonien Singh


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