About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

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Tormuse
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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by Tormuse » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:28 am

(Continuing)

3) Yeah, you need the Sun Device, so you'll have to distract the Mycon with the Syreen, which means you need to find out about what happened to Syra, so you can tell Talana about it. You can find that out from the Melnorme or from the Mycon themselves. (If you're doing it as a speedrun, probably better to get the info from the Mycon) You also need to get the Syreen ships from Epsilon Camelopardalis in Ur-Quan territory, so you need to be tough enough to face them. Oh yeah, and you need to fight five Podships to get the Sun Device itself. And in addition to all of that, you need to get the Ilwrath away from the Chmmr homeworld, which means you need either the Burvix caster or the Umgah caster. Again, if you're doing it as a speedrun, Burvix caster would be better, so you don't have to wait for the Spathi to slaveshield themselves.

So yeah, freeing the Chmmr is a pretty involved task!

OR...

Plan B) Wait 'til the Kohr-Ah begin their death march and then take the necessary components from the ruined homeworlds after everyone is dead... though I'm not 100% sure there's enough time to get all the parts before Earth is destroyed, and besides, if you wait for the death march, it probably no longer counts as a "speedrun." :P

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by krulle » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:05 am

Even with the Kohr-Ah death march, you'll need at least one caster and interact with the Dill-Rats.

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Borgie
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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by Borgie » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:40 pm

Elestan wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:47 am
If you want to do it with style, you should have 16 high-capacity fuel tanks, and not more than 1 fuel left when you make the deal.
+1... It's almost OP.

I recall doing the same thing with the Druuge + Portal Spawner. Had to put a weight on my keyboard and walk away to unload because my computer ran a bit slow at the time.

You don't actually need leave the starbase with any fuel for fueling up with the Melnorme, if you do it right. Is this actually a spoiler?


Btw: the topic's subject line is "...no spoilers!". But by the end of the thread, everything is revealed! >:D-smf

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The Troglodyte
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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by The Troglodyte » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:03 am

Elestan wrote:
The Troglodyte wrote:I’m more interested in seeing the things I missed, like the other Caster in Arcturus and swindling the Druuge out of fuel with a Vindicator with 1 crew pod and nothing else but fuel tanks! Now that’s my idea of fun!
If you want to do it with style, you should have 16 high-capacity fuel tanks, and not more than 1 fuel left when you make the deal.
Yeah! Drain them of every last drop! By the way, I’ve since tried it and it’s hilarious! His life is in shambles! Bwa-hahaha!
Quasispatial wrote:
The Troglodyte wrote:What? Puppets?! Never mind, I’m out.
Trust me, that Syreen puppet is the stuff of nightmares.
Darn. I have a real fetish for sexy puppets. Just kidding. …or am I?
Tormuse wrote:
The Troglodyte wrote:Wow! That sounds absolutely ridiculous! How can you even defend yourself? Well, ok, so there’s Fwiffo, and the 4 ships from the Pkunk, and Melnorme for fuel, but what about the Slyandro?! And those pathetic beginning engines! I'm going to have to check this out for sure and see how you pulled it off!
Needless to say, you have to get really good at killing Probes with Fwiffo. :P
And I thought I got sick of killing probes with Fwiffo! I used to use a technique where I’d use full thrust in the direction of the probe, and immediately after reaching max velocity, I’d turn around and wait for the right moment to hit the gas and launch my butts!
Tormuse wrote:
The Troglodyte wrote:Considering the numerous problems, this would probably be one of those games where I wouldn’t mind if somebody jumping in and warning me of dumb game glitches or things of that nature, especially if bad things can occur through no fault of your own.
Yeah, what got me in my first playthrough of SC3 was that a lot of significant events are based on how much in-game time has passed and I had been playing with the speed turned all the way down. I actually had time to explore every single star system in the game and had no clue what to do next, when what I should have done was turn the speed up and wait for the game to play itself. :P
Interesting. Perhaps this will make more sense during gameplay, but I imagine it has to do with time triggered events, such as the Pkunk migration?
Tormuse wrote:Oh, and on a completely different note, I just remembered, now we can tell you what would have been the result of your "cryogenic mission" back in the day. :) After enough in-game time passes, the Kohr-Ah win their war against the Kzer-Za and they start traveling around, killing everyone. (Commonly referred to as the Kohr-Ah death march) Their sphere of influence actually goes around the starmap and the sphere of influence of every other race shrinks down to nothing, one by one until they're all dead except the Ur-Quan, and then they reach Earth and the game ends. The reason people were urging you not to do your cryogenic mission is that 1) you wouldn't see anything, (you hadn't met any other races, so you wouldn't notice them dying) and 2) if you did happen to encounter the Kohr-Ah, it wouldn't make any sense to you, because they would be going on about winning the "Doctinal War" when you hadn't heard anything about it.
Actually, I recently learned somewhat of its occurence. During the latter part of my gameplay, when I was figuring out the final steps of game completion, I had a curiousity of what would happen if I allowed the Ilwrath to attack the Thraddash, but I tried experimenting with trying to time it for when you could send the Thraddash to attack the Kohr-Ah. I than tried to see if I could time up the Thraddash’s attack to coincide with the Utwig and Supox attacks, but during one of my tries I let the game continue for too long in HyperSpace (because I went to grab my pizza out of the oven!) and when I had come back, I saw the devastation of dead civilizations as they were suddenly removed from the starmap! A little while later (due to my growing curiosity) and the Kohr-Ah were on my screen declaring my defeat. I didn’t share this at the time because first of all, it was accidental, and secondly, I felt it would ruin the mood, and finally, because I also recalled everyone’s reaction when I had almost set out on the cryogenic task way back when. :roll:
Elestan wrote:
The Troglodyte wrote:
Tormuse wrote:]If you want a suggestion of a ridiculous way to play the game, check out the time I tried to win without ever visiting the Earth starbase! :D (Note: I don't actually recommend you try this) :P
Wow! That sounds absolutely ridiculous! How can you even defend yourself?
It's even worse than you think. If the player enters Hyperspace before getting the Starbase up and running, the game spawns Probes at fifty times the normal rate (1/day). This was a deliberate attempt by the designers to force the player to stay on track. A no-starbase win was impossible in the original SC2, because the game would crash when the Chmmr tried to install the crystal amplifier. UQM implemented logic to deal with this situation, and some players have pulled off a no-Starbase win. It generally involves shameless exploitation of save-scummning combined with Pkunk ressurection to replentish crew.
There’s even patches for no starbase play?! That is amazing in itself!
Tormuse wrote:There's also the non-intuitive step that you have to visit the Arilou homeworld. If you don't do that, the Dnyarri never wakes up.

[...]

Releasing the Chmmr is easily the most challenging of the three main steps... and I'm gonna have to finish this later, because my workplace wants me to work now. :P

[...]

Yeah, you need the Sun Device, so you'll have to distract the Mycon with the Syreen, which means you need to find out about what happened to Syra, so you can tell Talana about it. You can find that out from the Melnorme or from the Mycon themselves. (If you're doing it as a speedrun, probably better to get the info from the Mycon)
Point 1: I didn’t realize that visiting the Arilou is the actual Dnyarri trigger! Well placed by the creators.
Point 2: I also didn’t realize there were so many different ways to get the necessary dialogue for Talana.
Point 3: I also didn’t realize you were writing all this while at work. Don’t get yourself in trouble Tormuse! ;)-smf
krulle wrote:
And getting the Ur-Quan pod from that fiery planet is very beneficial, to increase your travel speed a lot (for the portal spawner). You're too slow, and too easily boxed in otherwise by the aliens and the probes, and you would just get stuck between hyperspace and battles., thus not meeting the requirmemt of being in-time.
Good point. Seems like the portal spawner is a must. Got me out of some sticky situations when dealing with hyperspace swarms!
Tormuse wrote:Again, if you're doing it as a speedrun, Burvix caster would be better, so you don't have to wait for the Spathi to slaveshield themselves.
Side note: I reloaded one of my earlier games just so I could see that Burvixese Caster for myself, and I’'ll bet you’ll never guess what I did with it! :lol:
Tormuse wrote:Plan B) Wait 'til the Kohr-Ah begin their death march and then take the necessary components from the ruined homeworlds after everyone is dead... though I'm not 100% sure there's enough time to get all the parts before Earth is destroyed, and besides, if you wait for the death march, it probably no longer counts as a "speedrun." :P
“Isn’t that a little like curing the disease by killing the patient?” ― Dr. Pulaski
Borgie wrote:I recall doing the same thing with the Druuge + Portal Spawner. Had to put a weight on my keyboard and walk away to unload because my computer ran a bit slow at the time.
I remember doing the same thing in Starflight 2. Every time I wanted to fill my ship up with fuel, I had a little container of iron pyrite shavings (from my chemistry set) I’d put on the enter button and wait for the tanks to fill, almost like a lever lock on a gas nozzle!
Borgie wrote:Btw: the topic's subject line is "...no spoilers!". But by the end of the thread, everything is revealed! >:D-smf
It’s like I said way back then… Unseasoned lurkers beware! You can tell from these most recent replies post-win that everyone’s letting it all fly now after such a long period of self-controlled restraint! Go ahead my friends! Let it all out! You deserve it! ;)
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” ― Khan Noonien Singh

Elestan
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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by Elestan » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:21 am

The Troglodyte wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:03 am
Elestan wrote:
The Troglodyte wrote:I’m more interested in seeing the things I missed, like the other Caster in Arcturus and swindling the Druuge out of fuel with a Vindicator with 1 crew pod and nothing else but fuel tanks! Now that’s my idea of fun!
If you want to do it with style, you should have 16 high-capacity fuel tanks, and not more than 1 fuel left when you make the deal.
Yeah! Drain them of every last drop! By the way, I’ve since tried it and it’s hilarious! His life is in shambles! Bwa-hahaha!
Not sure which reaction you got, but if he only talked about it looking bad on his record, you didn't take him for enough. :-)

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by krulle » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:35 am

The Troglodyte wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:03 am
Quasispatial wrote:
The Troglodyte wrote:What? Puppets?! Never mind, I’m out.
Trust me, that Syreen puppet is the stuff of nightmares.
Darn. I have a real fetish for sexy puppets. Just kidding. …or am I?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH57VFpUGj8 wrote:My brother: They sent a memo to the team saying that the Syreen should be very *appealing* but there was a typo and they thought it said *appalling*"
No "sexy", by any means, except if you really have a fetisch for blue; have a look for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH57VFpUGj8 (spoiler for SC3)

Elestan wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:21 am
The Troglodyte wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:03 am
Elestan wrote:
If you want to do it with style, you should have 16 high-capacity fuel tanks, and not more than 1 fuel left when you make the deal.
Yeah! Drain them of every last drop! By the way, I’ve since tried it and it’s hilarious! His life is in shambles! Bwa-hahaha!
Not sure which reaction you got, but if he only talked about it looking bad on his record, you didn't take him for enough. :-)
The reactions, from few fuel units, to more, and even more units:
Ha-ha, yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes!
A fine deal, Captain. An excellent bargain... for me!
Ho-ho-ho! When I offered you all the fuel you could hold, you could have drained every drop I had.
Cold sweat dripped from my palms as I watched my workers begin the transfer.
And then it was over... so soon! So gloriously soon!
I shall be promoted at least three full steps! A new office! A benefits package! Fortune has smiled on me today!
I feel so lucky, Captain, that you did not have the forethought to arrive here with a dozen empty tanks.
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!


Well done, Captain. Quite a fair exchange. Good job.
(hee-hee-hee).


You have received a fair exchange for your device, Captain.
Perhaps more than fair for you.
I will not be able to brag about this exchange, but then again
I need not worry about feeding the furnace.


This will look very bad on my record, Captain. You have hurt me deeply.
I had expected an understanding between trading partners, between equals
but NO! The moment my back is turned, you fill your bloated tanks far beyond a reasonable limit.
I have learned an important lesson from you today
One I shall never forget.


Aieee! I am ruined! You have sucked my full tanks until they are dry!
Cruel Monster! Bloated Villain! Slicer of innocent throats!
What shall I tell the Manager?! My spouse?!
I shall certainly be assigned to tend the furnaces.
I shall burn in the atomic fires!
Aieee!


edit: forgot how spoilers work on this phpBB forum.
Am used to the collapsed boxes, which would've reduced this posts length, which was my intention.

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Draxas
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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by Draxas » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:24 pm

The Troglodyte wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:03 am
Quasispatial wrote:
The Troglodyte wrote:What? Puppets?! Never mind, I’m out.
Trust me, that Syreen puppet is the stuff of nightmares.
Darn. I have a real fetish for sexy puppets. Just kidding. …or am I?
The Arilou puppet is equally terrifying at times. Lord only knows what the designers were thinking with these.
Interesting. Perhaps this will make more sense during gameplay, but I imagine it has to do with time triggered events, such as the Pkunk migration?
It's honestly more comparable to the Death March, but not really. The time triggered events in SC2 other than the Death March are all set up by actions the player takes in game, and so there is always some justification and player investment in what is going on (eg. Pkunk migration, Spathi shielding themselves, ZoqFotPik being potentially exterminated by the Kohr-Ah, etc.). Even in the case of the Death March, where the event happens independent from player input, there is plenty of warning that it is coming and several opportunities to try to influence when it occurs. Timed events in SC3 all occur independent of player actions but set up plot essential flags. They occur without warning, have only the flimsiest of in-universe justifications, and worst of all, if you sequence break certain ones (typically by accident) it can render the game unwinnable when future flags end up set incorrectly.

Yeah, in case you couldn't tell from the commentary so far, SC3 is kind of a hot mess of a game.
There’s even patches for no starbase play?! That is amazing in itself!
The UQM team might be the most amazing fan project group ever. The amount of dedication and effort they have put into making UQM the best possible version of SC2 is staggering.
[...stuff about optional vs. mandatory quests...]
Surprisingly, there are actually very few optional quests in UQM. Here's the ones I can think of off the top of my head:

Technically, visiting Earth's starbase is optional, as has been mentioned above. Not recommended, though; a no-starbase run is definitely one of the toughest challenges you could take on in SC2.
Recruiting Fwiffo is optional, you don't actually need to speak to him at all.
Encountering the Melnorme is optional.
Meeting with the Pkunk is mandatory, as you need the Clear Spindle. However, stopping their migration is optional, and if you let them get to the Yehat and vanish, they will still successfully integrate into Yehat culture and reappear as long as you also trigger the revolution.
Speaking of, reviving the Shofixti and starting the Yehat revolution are both optional, along with making contact with Tanaka or the VUX, or obtaining the VUX beast. However, if the old Queen is still in control when you battle the Sa-Matra, you will not receive reinforcements before the fight.
Encountering the ZoqFotPik is optional.
Obtaining the Burvix caster is optional (as you well know). However, this makes allying with the Spathi and obtaining the Umgah caster mandatory. On the flip side, encountering the Spathi is optional, but this makes obtaining the Burvix caster mandatory. One of the two casters is required to convince the Ilwrath to leave Procyon.
Related, obtaining the Aqua Helix is mandatory, but encountering the Thraddash is technically optional. The only way around that is to send the Ilwrath off to fight them, and then not investigate Draconis until they are already gone.
Encountering the Slylandro and stopping the Probes is optional.
Obtaining the Portal Spawner is optional, however speaking to the Arilou at their homeworld is mandatory (to trigger the Talking Pet's takeover of the Umgah).
After obtaining the Talking Pet, any additional contact with the Umgah is optional.
Having the Syreen ambush the Mycon at Organon is mandatory. Allying with the Syreen afterward is optional.
The Ur-Quan encounter at Vela is optional.
Making contact with the Orz is mandatory. Making friends with them is optional, you could kill the guards at the Taalo world instead.

“Isn’t that a little like curing the disease by killing the patient?” ― Dr. Pulaski
A lot like that, yeah. However, it does open up some options for completing quests you might otherwise be stuck on, since the Kohr-Ah leave behind any important artifacts as they travel. It makes it possible to grab artifacts that you might know the location of, but haven't puzzled out how to get normally, in a last ditch effort to "beat the buzzer" and win the game. It ends up being a rather pyrrhic victory, though.

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by Quasispatial » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:39 pm

The Troglodyte wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:03 am
I didn’t realize that visiting the Arilou is the actual Dnyarri trigger! Well placed by the creators.
Well, actually...
I seem to recall that if you talk with the pre-Dnyaari Umgah, you can get into dialogue where they mention the talking pet being operated on. After that, if you wait for a couple of weeks, the Umgah will be mind controlled just as with the Arilou conversation. Of course, the latter is still faster because the quasispace portal just saves you so much time in the long run.
"Sentient life. We are the Ur-Quan. Independence is intolerable. Blah, blah, blah." - the Spathi High Council, Star Control II.

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by Tormuse » Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:37 am

Draxas wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:24 pm
The UQM team might be the most amazing fan project group ever. The amount of dedication and effort they have put into making UQM the best possible version of SC2 is staggering.
I agree that they put a lot of dedication and effort into it, but I will always have the (maybe unpopular) opinion that it's the inferior version just for the fact that they exclude info about the location of the Mycon homeworld and of Syra. Without those vital clues, the game forces new players to go bumbling around dangerous, hostile Mycon space without knowing what they're looking for or why, or even without knowing they're supposed to look there in the first place! In all the years that the UQM version has been around, I don't know why that was never fixed; it's a pretty significant drawback imo.

(I'm also not fond of the dumbing down of the dialogue, but that's another matter)
The Troglodyte wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:03 am
“Isn’t that a little like curing the disease by killing the patient?” ― Dr. Pulaski
I recognize that reference. :D I've never been fond of that TNG episode; I haven't watched it in forever, but I remember it being weirdly paced, with lots of padding, where people are standing around reacting to the weird goings-on, though at least it has a good moral dilemma at the end.

(Man, I'm just doing nothing but complain lately; what's gotten into me?) :P

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Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!

Post by krulle » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:49 am

The UQM team did put the dialogue back in.
It was the 3DO version that had it removed, and UQM is based on that version.

The problemis the voice acting.
Since no files exist for that 3DO-missing dialogue, if you play with speech on, the missing dialogue will not be displayed.
If you play with speech off, like the MS-DOS version of SC2 was, then the text will be shown.

UQM tries to combine all the best parts of each version, but someone would need to find someone close enough with his/her voice to do the missing speeches, record them, and put them into the UQM files. And since voice acting usually does cost something, this is on the wish list for a project that has no budget. Unless someone coughs it up on his/her own money, this will not happen.


@Draxas:
you forgot
rescueing the ZFP from the single Ur-Quan Kohr-Ah Marauder
BVut that list is quite extensive. It's not that much shorter than the list of must-dos...

The must-be dones:
Blow up Sa-Matra
Requires A) freeing the Chmmr b) the Bomb and C) the talking Pet


A) requires the
Sun-Device, which requires
trapping the Mycon, which requires
finding the Syreen Ships, which necessitates
find out about the Mycon Deep Children (from Talana, the Mycon, and a fragment; or bought from the Melnorme and a fragment)

A) also requires
sending the Ilwrath, which in turn requires
either of the Hyperwave Casters, which in turn again splits into two separate flows: the Burvixese Caster ends here,
the Spathi Caster requires the Spathi as allies (+ time), which in turn requires
  • the removal of the Evil Ones from the surface of Spathiwa, and
  • the code from Fwiffo, or from the Melnorme.


B) requires
The Ultron, which in turn requires
  • the Clear Spindle (from the Pkunk),
  • Rosy Sphere (Druuge -> trade for either a Mycon Deep Child Fragment, or the 'Caster, or Crew),
  • Aqua Helix (-> befriending the Thraddash, or sending them against the Enemy of their bosses)
  • the broken Ultron (Supox)


C) requires
  • freeing the Umgah, which can only be done if they're actually enslaved, which happens when you either
    - get information about a crashed ship and the surviving talking pet from the Arilou
    - or from the Umgah themselves (+time),
  • the Taalo shield (get past the Orz, either as happy camper, or by shooting your way through their defence).

    (note the Taalo shield is not necessary of the Umgah are victims of the Death-March...)



I'm derailing this thread, and it may well be I forgot something myself.
Ugh. I should delete the list, but then why put in the effort?
Maybe we should move this necessary/unnecessary missions discussion into a separate thread?

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