Star Control Discussion Board

Yeah, If ound out you could y'day.
Weird. not helpful in preventing spam.....

Anyway, an interesting post from the UQM-forum, I'm crosslinking due to the content from the manuals.

This may help in further discussions.

It is still unclear regarding SCII: Game (C) by FF and PR. But what constitutes part of the game copyright?
Only the characters? Only the code? The music (which if I remember correctly, was "bought" from some freelancers on the usenet/BBS/... systems of that time)? The story?
This formulation is very short, and in this case ambiguous. But it looks like they meant "the game, everything in the software is (c) PR and FF; all other stuff, like manual, box, cover art,... is (c) Accolade".
I received a "players handbook/hintbook" (ressource guide [1]) with one of the packages, which explicitly states that this handbook was written by FF and PR3. And then the name Atari appears.

It appears to me, that Atari only had transferred the copyrights on physical stuff to them, but left all other stuff, the intagible stuff like code, story, characters, software, to the developers.
Printed books? Manual? Box? Art on disc, CD, box, cover, manual, ressource guide? All copyrights transferred to Atari (and now Stardock).

[EDIT]
Anyway: googled a bit and found this on the net too:
(bolding highlights by me)
[edit 3]downloadable PDF of PC version manual (without front of back pages): http://replacementdocs.com/download.php?view.1119
Again, only portions are copyrights by FF and PRIII. (see page 102 of the PDF)[/edit 3]

Forget that in Europe you can always sell again, and that you cannot agree to a license agreement by opening a package if the license agreement is only provided inside the package.
Also you have to duplicate the software to use it (onto harddrive for installation; into memory for execution).

But the text here says PORTIONS only are copyrighted by FF and PR... The game is copyrighted by Accolade.
(very unlucky line breaks...)
This is different from the passage quote on the UQM forum....

This sounds much like Accolade as publisher has all rights to make as many copies as necessary for the distribution of the game. And no-one else.

This would support Stardock's view.

[EDIT2]
Let us make this worse:
With the 3DO clearly, Accolade only has the brandname StarControl, the copyright is stated to be with FF and PRIII.
This would support FF and PR's view.



With the different versions 3DO (1994) and PC (1992), I do not know what to make of it. Seems like either Accolade made an error when making the PC manuals, and corrected it for the 3DO version; OR the copyright to the content changed in the meantime.
And 1994 is a long while past. It may be very difficult to refind the documentation to prove either way.

I need to shut up, this is interesting to me personally, but there is no clear documentation publicly available allowing me to draw a sound conclusion.

So someone dug up the original Atari court proceedings. I'm not a lawyer but at first glance it does seem to support F&P's argument:
https://www.resetera.com/posts/1739129/





So the document excludes anything not listed in B22 and G, which has a very limited list. Prima facie, this certainly seems to support Fred and Paul.

I'm guessing Stardock's argument in response would be that since the original Accolade license said it would never terminate, it still carries over under either "(a) the Intellectual Property" or "(c) all Causes of Action for past or present infringement or misappropriation", and one of these items would be considered a "provision to the contrary" mentioned in 2.02. Whether this would hold up, I can't say because I'm not a lawyer.

My guess is that Stardock's argument is based on the hardline perpetual exclusivity of Accolade's original license that said it would go even past termination, while TFB is based more on the Atari auction. It would likely be possible for a lawyer to make a plausible argument either way depending on which text they chose to emphasize as the primary one.

Perhaps there are other documents I'm not aware of that would push things one way or another. I'm trying to be charitable because I want to believe both sides are acting in good faith here with their best understanding of the legal technicalities.

One can just go to the online copyright search and look over the copyrights that were in place for the game. Some people here will clearly not like what they find.

Stardock has never made any claim own the aliens, characters, setting or lore of the classic series. We aren't using them. We have no intent to use them.

We simply think the two parties should put together an agreement that puts to rest any and all disagreements (both immediate and potential).

As this thread makes clear, the IP surrounding the classic series is a little messy. The best way, as I've made clear to Paul and Fred numerous times, is for us to just get on the phone and come up with a win-win solution for both each other and the fans.

And yes, I realize that sounds like PR speak but that's almost exactly the words I've used in my discussions. Better to deal with a fanboy like me than a lawyer.

I actually think it sounds like a series of threats, or at the very least a FUD campaign. It's all vague and ominous. Like these statements:




Again, I'd suggest you stop beating around the bush so much and stick to the point. If Stardock's position is the The Ur-Quan Masters was illegally licensed in any part, say so. If Stardock's position is that The Ur-Quan Masters and related copyrights were successfully collected by FF&PR, and Stardock's only contention is that it has a permanent agreement allowing it to distribute the DOS games inherited from Accolade, say so. This isn't something like software patents where knowing makes things worse. If you just can't make concrete statements on behalf of Stardock for legal reasons, then again, just say so.


If so, I would find their frustration to be quite understandable.

I don't think I can be any more clear.

Those agreements were transferred to Stardock by Atari who in turn received them from Accolade.

I'm not a lawyer so I am not going to make speculate on things like the Ur-Quan Masters other than to say Stardock is glad it exists andis supportive of that effort and will never take any action to interfere with it.

What I do know, however, based on legal counsel is that Paul's Accolade agreements are still in effect and enforceable which contain many provisions that are very restrictive. I also know that Stardock owns Star Control in all forms that related to computer and video games.

And lastly, I know that Stardock desires for Ghosts of the Precursors to be made and to be made as a continuation of the events of the Ur-Quan Masters.

As for the copyrights, like I said, you can look them up. I am not going to go into more detail than that for obvious legal reasons.

Look, if you guys don't want me here, I can leave. I am *trying* to be supportive of the community and if you look, I have not said a negative word about Paul and Fred. In fact, if you look at my postings, they have been universally positive about them. I am, of course, biased, but I am trying to provide as much information, as I can on the subject. Far more, I think most would agree, than would normally be provided given the circumstances.

So just say the word and I'll go.

It i my hope that this community will never become one of exclusion. I would hope you would not leave Frogboy. Despite the obvious hostility, which I believe is only born from the passion we all hold for those involved, this community has never been one that I feel has not had the capacity to overcome disagreements.

Ultimately the choice to stay or go lies with you or the mods, but I for one would appreciate your continued input.

Frogboy has done nothing here anywhere NEAR worthy of a ban, so it's up to him whether he finds you all sufficiently annoying to leave. And before that point I'd hope I or other moderators would be stepping in to keep people from being very annoying.

We've had some red text going around on both sides today; hopefully no more will be needed.

Brad,

First of all I will believe you have good intentions and don't want you to be kicked out.

That said, it's easy to see how one could read this sort of statement as a subtle threat. If Ur-quan Masters is of questionable legality and exists by Stardock's good graces (which seems to logically follow if we grant all your other premises), that can be revoked at any time. Now I believe you when you say you support UQM and don't want to go after it, but I would still be worried reading that in F&P's place and would probably think "I need a lawyer."

F&P have been strongly convinced for a long time that they fully own Star Control 1/2 and have rights to all future products in the universe (including non-game), with the exception of the name "Star Control." This is something they've believed since sometime in the first half of the 00s and not a new thing they came up with to needle Stardock or start a fight. I'm sure they have consulted with lawyers about it in the past long before Stardock became associated with SC.

Could they be mistaken about this, could there be more ambiguities than they imagined? It's possible, though if they are wrong I doubt things are as definitive as Stardock's side either. But it makes sense that they would feel threatened about being told otherwise, however polite the language. I can understand why they feel backed into a corner, even if I can't assess all the legal arguments and their public blog posts are probably imprudent.

This was right after a response to my post, so I must say I never made any indication that I wanted you to leave. I would never even consider doing that here. I'm only offering suggestions for how to handle talking about this dispute Stardock has with F&P. You can take them or leave them.