Terrorist attacks in Norway

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Angelfish
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Re: Terrorist attacks in Norway

Post by Angelfish » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:25 pm

Bleeding Star wrote:Bloody awful. I know we have a lot of Scandanavians on the boards (though no Norwegians?) so I hope no one has been personally affected by this.

Interesting to see that the immediate assumption by many people that the bombing was associated with Muslim extremism. Perhaps not enough attention being given to home-grown nutters? Though I don't know if there was anything that could have been done about this in advance.
As to the immediate assumptions, they were made because shortly after the attacks a muslim extremist organisation claimed responsibility, falsely.

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Re: Terrorist attacks in Norway

Post by Nuclear » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:28 am

Bleeding Star wrote:Bloody awful. I know we have a lot of Scandanavians on the boards (though no Norwegians?) so I hope no one has been personally affected by this.
I'm rather patriotic about my Norwegian ancestry...I'm pissed, but other then that, I'm not too personally affected. I just hate these extremists for their selfish lack of morality.
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Re: Terrorist attacks in Norway

Post by Draxas » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:44 am

The whole thing is really just tragic, especially the camp shootings.

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Re: Terrorist attacks in Norway

Post by Bleeding Star » Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:38 pm

Yeah, I can't imagine what it would have been like being on the island. Reading some of the chat/text logs of some of the people on the island is pretty chilling.
Angelfish wrote: As to the immediate assumptions, they were made because shortly after the attacks a muslim extremist organisation claimed responsibility, falsely.
A lot of nutters claim responsibility after these kind of attacks. It certainly wasn't an unreasonable theory to blame Islamic militants, but many of the news outlets were treating it as the only theory. Usual suspects such as the Sun, or Fox news were trumpeting all sorts of crap, but the BBC was also sucked into the hype, and they should bloody know better.

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Re: Terrorist attacks in Norway

Post by Lukipela » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:53 am

Lobsterman is from Norway, but hasn't been here in a while. Hopefully all is well with him.

Saw some interesting statistics that said that out of 279 terrorist attacks (executed, foiled and failed) in 2009, one was carried out by islamists. The vast majority was carried out by separatists like ETA or Real IRA, with a smattering of far-right and far-left attacks. Yet we always assume it's muslims first.

Lots of discussion in Finland now regarding if we really need to let civilians use semi-automatics. We've been trending towards restrictions on those weapons for a while already though.

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Re: Terrorist attacks in Norway

Post by Gekko » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:48 pm

Interesting article in Helsingin Sanomat web site today. An 18 year old man had ordered the same fertilizer as the Norwegian dude, and the National Bureau of Investigation decided to investigate. The man said he had ordered them for his pyrotechnics hobby, and had tried to cancel the order when he heard about the bombing (he had made the order two days before the bomb went off).

Now, I wonder how all those farmers using those fertilizers for farming are going to survive. The NBI will be busy...
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Re: Terrorist attacks in Norway

Post by Draxas » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:32 pm

Lukipela wrote:Saw some interesting statistics that said that out of 279 terrorist attacks (executed, foiled and failed) in 2009, one was carried out by islamists. The vast majority was carried out by separatists like ETA or Real IRA, with a smattering of far-right and far-left attacks. Yet we always assume it's muslims first.
That can't possibly be worldwide. Where did this come from, and what does it refer to?

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Re: Terrorist attacks in Norway

Post by Saria » Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:37 pm

Loss of life in any regards is terrible, so this event isn't an exception. I hope that the family's victims have the support they need even now, days after the attack.
Draxas wrote:
Lukipela wrote:Saw some interesting statistics that said that out of 279 terrorist attacks (executed, foiled and failed) in 2009, one was carried out by islamists. The vast majority was carried out by separatists like ETA or Real IRA, with a smattering of far-right and far-left attacks. Yet we always assume it's muslims first.
That can't possibly be worldwide. Where did this come from, and what does it refer to?
Europe.

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Re: Terrorist attacks in Norway

Post by TSC » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:44 am

The problem with these sort of things is that it's nearly impossible to prevent. A single person with little to lose is all it takes. And fact is though this guy seems to be pretty delusional, a scary thing to consider is that just as frequently people like this ARE in full control of their faculties. All to often someone goes on a killing spree not because they are insane, but because they are very passionate about their beliefs, have demonized the people they are gunning down and have nothing to lose. That's very important to know.

I think it's kind of like... take the nazi's, people are very very quick to try and put as much distance between themselves and nazi's as possible. To try and say that nazi's where nothing at all like them. But well... if only that where true! Fact is, they where mostly normal people who got swept up in a (now discredited, but at the time appealing to many people) ideology. An evil ideology, but not seen for what it was back then.

And Breivik, though he does seem to have a tenuous grip on reality, STILL was like that. Swept up in an evil ideology. An ideology that's out there and represented in my country by Geert Wilders (who I personally see as a clown who screams alot of stuff he never intends to do or never COULD do if he did intend it.) But who has quite a fanbase. (Helped by the fact that violent Islamic fundies are really no better then far right gunmen, they do make a very convenient scary enemy to try and gain voters with.) However that doesn't excuse Wilders ideology, (which is part of a greater anti-muslim panic, that Breivik was also a part of) because two wrongs don't make a right.

And I think what we can learn from this is that we should reject ideologies like that. And that responsible main stream political parties should never work with parties like Wilders party and the like. (Which I'm sad to say the right-wing parties here FAILED to do, their in effect in a coalition with him.) Because idea's like that should not be seen as respectable.

You still can't prevent a Breivik. Here in the Netherlands we had a shooting like that of our own, committed by a depressed guy named Tristan van der Vlis. Although the both of them also bring up another issue.

Both of those spree shooters got their guns legally from a shooting club. Which to me means that we need to maybe abolish that. Let shooting clubs have their guns in a vault with the ammo's in another vault. And if people want to join such a club they can only use the clubs guns, not own guns themselves.

It's alot harder to rack up a huge victim count with hand to hand weapons. And much as explosives aren't that hard to make per se, most people don't have a clue on how to do that and never will.

That's my thoughts on it. I also definitly think that in the public arena we SHOULD make this political, because lets face it. In this case extremist politics IS at the root of this in Breivik's case. So we should address that. Same for that matter in case of religious extremists terrorists, when they do something, wether it's christians shooting abortion doctors or muslim suicide bombers we SHOULD address their particular extremist branch of religion.

And I feel people often don't do any of that out of misplaced deference to these extremist views.

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Re: Terrorist attacks in Norway

Post by Lukipela » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:52 am

Saria wrote:
Draxas wrote:
That can't possibly be worldwide. Where did this come from, and what does it refer to?
Europe.
Thanks Saria! Yeah I should have been more specific about where I was talking about, wasn't thinking. Sorry bout that.

TSC: As you say, if we want an open and free society, we can never completely protect us against things like this. That's just one of the costs of being free. But a good precaution is to take a look at whether or not semi-automatics need to be so easy to get hold of.

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