Political Discussion Megathread

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Angelfish
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Re: Political Discussion Megathread

Post by Angelfish »

I wonder just how many palestinian children Israel is worth. How many of these children must die so Israel can survive as a state? Or the other way around?
Either way, they didn't chose this conflict yet they have to suffer for it.
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Alvarin
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Re: Political Discussion Megathread

Post by Alvarin »

I usually try not to participate in discussions of Israeli-Arab conflicts as a biased side, but this does warrant an answer.
Angelfish, your source of information is SO pro-Palestinian it is not even funny. Perhaps you only read The Guardian for this purpose...
The moderately low number of injured and dead Israelis is due to defensive effort of shelters and discipline of using them, and the anti-missiles systems, by very far NOT due to lack of effort.
The relatively high number of dead and injured Palestinians is only due to fact that the major targets, long-ranged underground launching silos are situated specifically inside densely populated areas, under kindergartens, on hospital roofs and so on. It is really praise worthy there are so (relatively) few civilian casualties on Palestinian side, not counting the injured, there is over 50% death confirmed to be terrorists. IDF pinpoint targets launch sites and ammunition warehouses, and the terrorists when on the move, the other side loosely aims at the densest populated areas they can reach. I'll give you some numbers, which are not even complete - these are only rockets, mortar shells,explosive charges and so on are not included.
2012:
November 1.390 rockets, 5 dead
October 127
September 16
August 21
July 22
June 112
May 4
April 8
March 214
February 35
January 13
2011: 390, 3 dead
2010: 100, 1 dead
2009: 570
2008: 1490,7 dead
2007: 437, 2 dead
2006: 1020, 2 dead
2005: 270, 6 dead
2004: 260, 5 dead
2003: 100
2002: 20
2001: 5

With those numbers, show me ONE, just ONE other country that would not just mobilize it's entire army and wipe out the entire Gaza sector, if it was in our shoes.
Yes, I know the civilians there suffer, but they are the ones letting the terrorists use their back gardens and schools...
I can't blame the entire Palestinian population, but we do not really have any choice.
To be angry is to punish yourself for the errors of others.
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Angelfish
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Re: Political Discussion Megathread

Post by Angelfish »

So the civilians die because your targets are in civilian areas. Yeah so don't bomb the targets in civilian areas, is that so hard to understand?
Or are you really willing to let 100 palestinian children die so 5 israeli can live?
The other way around it's just the same, the palestinians don't mind sending 100 of their own children to death just to hit 5 israeli people.
That's why this conflict is so fucked up in the eyes of the western world.
Anyway, I'm glad that a cease fire has been announced this night. I hope it will last.

I think most groups would have acted the same, but then again most people wouldn't have founded israel at all.
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Alvarin
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Re: Political Discussion Megathread

Post by Alvarin »

Angelfish wrote:So the civilians die because your targets are in civilian areas. Yeah so don't bomb the targets in civilian areas, is that so hard to understand?
Yes. Extremely hard. If these targets aren't destroyed, the missiles they shoot hit OUR children.
The terrorists hold their population hostages and ONLY the Palestinians themselves can stop this.

About the cease fire - it didn't hold. Today the Israeli cities around Gaza were bombed several times already...
We will have to see if our government will let it slide...
To be angry is to punish yourself for the errors of others.
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Angelfish
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Re: Political Discussion Megathread

Post by Angelfish »

Alvarin wrote:
Angelfish wrote:So the civilians die because your targets are in civilian areas. Yeah so don't bomb the targets in civilian areas, is that so hard to understand?
Yes. Extremely hard. If these targets aren't destroyed, the missiles they shoot hit OUR children.
The terrorists hold their population hostages and ONLY the Palestinians themselves can stop this.
How many of their children is israel willing to kill to protect one of your children?
I don't think anybody can stop this.
About the cease fire - it didn't hold. Today the Israeli cities around Gaza were bombed several times already...
We will have to see if our government will let it slide...
Ahh that sucks. :(
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Eth
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Re: Political Discussion Megathread

Post by Eth »

I've heard that the new "Iron Dome" system is doing a good job of intercepting incoming rockets that are likely to land in populated areas.
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Alvarin
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Re: Political Discussion Megathread

Post by Alvarin »

Indeed. About 87% interception.
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Dyandod
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Re: Political Discussion Megathread

Post by Dyandod »

I am constantly astounded by Israel's amount of self-restraint.
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Death 999
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Re: Political Discussion Megathread

Post by Death 999 »

... in actual military conflict, sure. Then look at:

- their utter abandon with which they build settlements in areas they've agreed not to, thereby siezing the de facto control of further territories
- the lack of representation in their government by non-jews, at any level
- the numerous, useless obstructions to ordinary Palestinean commerce that resemble our 'security theater' because Israel doesn't rely on these measures for its safety
- preempting their water supply
- the blockade

The first four of these have been going on more or less constantly for fifty years without interruption.
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oldlaptop
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Re: Political Discussion Megathread

Post by oldlaptop »

Death 999 wrote: - the lack of representation in their government by non-jews, at any level
If I'm not mistaken, there's at least two Palestinian/Arab parties seated in the Knesset (granted they're small parties).
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