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 Post subject: Re: In the present day and time, are Syreen still acceptable
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:33 pm 
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ZFP Peacekeeper
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In case of Syreen it was actually explained - when their apocalypse happened, only a handful of males survived, as most of the fleet was females, as such, Talana's motivation to engage in relationship with anatomically compatible male is understandable.
Still, a trope is a trope, this detail can easily be missed.

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 Post subject: Re: In the present day and time, are Syreen still acceptable
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:47 pm 
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Hunam adventurer
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I was talking about the Syreen as a species, not the character Talana and her tryst with the captain. The problem is unlike say Fwiffo or Admiral ZEX, Talana doesn't really underline anything about the species as a whole (e.g. in contrast, by having some measure of heroism or liking humans) that strongly differentiates them from humans in terms of personality or outlook. If you're saying that narratively speaking, the entire raison d'etre of the Syreen species is to bone spacemen ... well, that's not exactly better is it?

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 Post subject: Re: In the present day and time, are Syreen still acceptable
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:25 am 
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Alvarin wrote:
In case of Syreen it was actually explained - when their apocalypse happened, only a handful of males survived, as most of the fleet was females, as such, Talana's motivation to engage in relationship with anatomically compatible male is understandable.
Still, a trope is a trope, this detail can easily be missed.

How many years before the story of SC2 did the cataclysm of Syra happen?
First they stayed around Syra for years, trying to rescue survivors, then building and respecing orbital installations and spaceships.
Afterwards, they've been moving slowly with their slow-moving habitats searching for ressources and/or anew planet untill they met the Alliance.
Then there've been the years of the Hierarchy-Alliance war (SC1), with the final the resettlement on their new planet.
Now the doctrinal conflict between the Kzer-Za and the Kohr-Ah, which has been going on for years, as the Kzer-Za failed to oblige with their obligation to refuel the Hierarchy station in orbit of Earth.
And the travels of young Mr. Zelnick until he finally comes to the situation...

I think by now, sufficient healthy young men should've reached adulthood again to make up the lack of men in their population.

I wonder if the Syreen-station has also not been supplied with essentials, or whether this is something specific to the Human-station?


But then, the Syreen may have stayed a mostly-female space navy, thus possibly only very few or even no male Syreen aboard the station, when the Kzer-Za last resupplied and re(wo)manned the station.


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 Post subject: Re: In the present day and time, are Syreen still acceptable
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:39 pm 
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Yehat Revolutionist
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krulle wrote:
How many years before the story of SC2 did the cataclysm of Syra happen?

By my estimate... a century, roughly? They wandered the stars, looking for a home for seventy-five years, then there was the calamity with the Ur-Quan Slave War. We know that the slave war ended more than twenty years before you meet Talana, and the war itself lasted for several years so... yeah, roughly a century. More than long enough to achieve a more gender-balanced population by human reproductive standards.

krulle wrote:
But then, the Syreen may have stayed a mostly-female space navy, thus possibly only very few or even no male Syreen aboard the station, when the Kzer-Za last resupplied and re(wo)manned the station.

Yeah, only the women have psionic aptitude, as far as I have heard, which is why they make up the bulk of the space forces.

As I see it, there are two possible reasons for the gender difference.
1: The males are beneath the shield. This is certainly a possibility, and given the psionics' female-only limitation, certainly a viable one.
2: Syreen reproduction works differently than the human one. We know that Zelnick had grandchildren of both genders, but we don't actually know anything about his children. Suppose, for instance, that Syreen reproduction works thus: The first child of any one male is male. The following ones are almost always female.
This would essentially prevent any sort of quick recovery of the gender imbalance, since the lack of males would result in a very small growth of the male population count. If ten males could sire eleven or twelve males at most, with the rest of their offspring resulting in females, it would take many generations to recover entirely. Albeit this is just one theory, and I'm sure there are other, better ones out there... but it's at least one possible explanation for it all.

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 Post subject: Re: In the present day and time, are Syreen still acceptable
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:32 pm 
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Or, simply, the Syreen have longer lifespans and less frequent breeding cycles than humans. Frankly, trying to debate the intricacies of nebulous alien biology can provide endless theories, all plausible, none correct until confirmed in canon.


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 Post subject: Re: In the present day and time, are Syreen still acceptable
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:34 pm 
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Hunam adventurer
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This is all beside the point. Most (not all, but most) people who play games of this sort are male, for reasons rooted in biology and the evolutionary history of male and female brains. Therefore putting in cheesecake to appeal to males is normal and acceptable way to enhance the appeal to that market. Guys LIKE having cute fantasy girlfriends to play with in their escapist fantasies, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Companies that make a big point of being gender-inclusive and look how much we want women to play our game and so on get lots of public praise and pats on the head, and then, when it comes time to put up or shut up, the product tanks in the market, because the men aren't interested in something that twisted itself away from its basic nature to try to appeal to women, while the women aren't interested because it's just not the sort of game most of them would play. So all it amounts to is pointless virtue-signalling and ends with people losing their jobs.

This was one of the major objections to Legend's Star Control 3, back when it came out: they made the Syreen ugly.


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 Post subject: Re: In the present day and time, are Syreen still acceptable
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:15 am 
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vok3 wrote:
This was one of the major objections to Legend's Star Control 3, back when it came out: they made the Syreen ugly.


Replace "Syreen" with "everyone" and you're more on target. The Syreen were the worst offenders (they barely look human-like anymore), but the Arilou in particular were nearly as bad, and none of the other puppets looked especially good, especially with the level of hype they built up for them. And as we have discussed ad infinitum around here, the puppets are the least of that game's many, many issues.


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 Post subject: Re: In the present day and time, are Syreen still acceptable
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:44 am 
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Arilou wiseguy
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vok3 wrote:
This is all beside the point. Most (not all, but most) people who play games of this sort are male, for reasons rooted in biology and the evolutionary history of male and female brains. Therefore putting in cheesecake to appeal to males is normal and acceptable way to enhance the appeal to that market. Guys LIKE having cute fantasy girlfriends to play with in their escapist fantasies, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Companies that make a big point of being gender-inclusive and look how much we want women to play our game and so on get lots of public praise and pats on the head, and then, when it comes time to put up or shut up, the product tanks in the market, because the men aren't interested in something that twisted itself away from its basic nature to try to appeal to women, while the women aren't interested because it's just not the sort of game most of them would play. So all it amounts to is pointless virtue-signalling and ends with people losing their jobs.

That is a really strange argument. Why would Star Control be a game that exclusively appeals to men? Mass Effect is similar to Star Control in many ways--you could say it even has the Syreen in it, because it pretty much does--do you think only men played through that one?


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 Post subject: Re: In the present day and time, are Syreen still acceptable
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:42 am 
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You know, the whole reason you only see female Syreen is (at its core) because Syreen society is female-dominated. Isn't that pretty much a Feminist wet-dream? Heck, I would expect some of those people to get upset at the introduction of male Syreen because they would interpret that as taking down strong, independent blue women, or something. Just saying.

I think it would be silly to change a perfectly good lore to try to appease a group that doesn't even play any of the Star Control games, regardless. I think the Syreen are cool, and that's all that matters.


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 Post subject: Re: In the present day and time, are Syreen still acceptable
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:16 am 
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Ogo3142 wrote:
You know, the whole reason you only see female Syreen is (at its core) because Syreen society is female-dominated. Isn't that pretty much a Feminist wet-dream? Heck, I would expect some of those people to get upset at the introduction of male Syreen because they would interpret that as taking down strong, independent blue women, or something. Just saying.
The thing is that the Syreen are wearing rather revealing "uniforms". Military uniforms that are impractical in battle, as they will NOT offer any form of protection.
Of course, it may all be part of the Syreen culture. And Talana's uniform being a ceremonial one as commander, where there's no expectation of her needing to go into a hands-on combat.
IIRC, we only ever get to see and contact one single Syreen in SC2 (not counting the battle screens).

Ogo3142 wrote:
I think it would be silly to change a perfectly good lore to try to appease a group that doesn't even play any of the Star Control games, regardless. I think the Syreen are cool, and that's all that matters.
Also, I would love the Syreen male to appear in a sequel. The way we have our females stereotyped when "serving": standing in the background, serving coffee/water/refreshments and showing off their ten-packs and biceps. And in full "feathers" (make-up, hairdo, ear-rings, ...), as they are the gender competing for the female's attention, and having to be the pretty ones. (Which would be another reason to have the females wearing clothing that can actually show off their ranks - Human uniforms give plenty of room to show rank - by colour, room for medals, insignia, ...; all that seems to be lacking in the skimpy Syreen outfit - but then their culture may be higher ranked persons showing off their skin, as they do not need to be working "outside" where it is cold and thus they do not need thick clothing like lower ranked Syreen females.)

Otherwise I agree. Tropes are tropes, and silly stuff like the Syreen will remain silly. If someone wants to complain about the game, (s)he will find plenty of political incorrect stuff to complain about.


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