Women on this board

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glory_device
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Re: Women on this board

Post by glory_device » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:27 pm

Lukipela wrote:To be honest, most "misandry" is either a strawman or an insignificant problem compared to the misogny out there.
That I completely Agree!

The problem that I saw wasn't the cause in itself, (for which I truly am a fervent supporter) but in this committee. The spokesperson were able to simply enrage man and women alike on the campus by their way of saying things and the action taken. Instead of creating an inclusive group, they tend to favor isolation and segregation: you either fully agree with what we say or your simply out. Furthermore, I felt like some of them were trying to make me feel bad about being a man...It's the way I felt anyway when I spoke to them. That group in general didn't fare well with other feminism group on the campus..However, they were the most vocal/provocative, so they were getting way more attention. Concrete results and improvements, however, came from other groups.
Lukipela wrote: And a fair counterpoint to "change must come in tiny steps" is that it is much the same as saying "sorry you're being treated shittily, we'll start treating you better now, but really slowly since some people that are currently treating you shittily feel uncomfortable about treating you better and we care more about hteir feelings than your problems.

Look at the march of gay marriage through the states right now. Would it have been better if we had done it more slowly to oblige homophobes?
When it concerns politics, my country (Canada)(and most importantly, my province(Quebec)) is pretty odd when it comes to change. In general we are really socialist in nature...however, we have a onset of like 5-6 minority government in the past 15 years on both level of government with a swing chair kind of cycle between the two parties involved. Therefore, every significant change were dissolved to go in opposite direction to once again get shelved or destroyed and flip it once more. Therefore, population in general felt that...nothing was happening at all! And this happens to some civil rights issues, healthcare and education....Not funny at all to see budgets being blasted into reverting or flipping things up instead of improving

Furthermore, here, we are on a state where most of the major issues are tackled on an the general consensus is favorable. When major things happens, indeed you need to go in hard. But, once you get past that, the rest of the changes actually happens slowly and the idea spreads too. In a matter of speaking, it's like putting your foot on the door to stop it from closing. after that, you can crawl your way in at a different pace....but you need the foot first and that needs to happens quite fast and the foot strong enough to sustain the door closing on it.
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Nuclear
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Re: Women on this board

Post by Nuclear » Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:53 am

Okay, so your knee jerk reaction is probably to start pointing fingers and calling me a woman hater. Based on what you've seen, this may have some validity, but I want you to keep in mind that;

1) The majority of my friends are, in fact, female gamers. The opinions I decided to share are based exclusively off of what I've seen in real life. Yes, I definitely made generalizations about female gamers, but rest assured I am not just pulling wild assumptions out of my ass. I simply base what I say off of what I practically observe in real life. It's not like I'll meet some retro gaming girl over TF2, and then use her as an excuse to speak for all female gamers. That's just not how I role.

2) If you think, on a serious and literal level, that I group all female gamers into one or two stereotypes, then you probably imagine me as some kind of Neanderthal that acquired computer access. I hate to break it to you, but the SCDB is not Sereuss Bizzness to me. This is a happy little club that I visit once in awhile, you are my conjecture buddies, we circle jerk over a 20 year old computer game, and we share some laughs and have some fun. I don't log in here with the intention of offending anyone, or soap boxing hate speech, or trying to sway the masses to my opinion or whatever. This is all just shits and giggles, and I feel comfortable enough with you people to speak casually. With that in mind, I don't go over everything I type making sure that nothing I say can be interpreted as offensive to a certain minority, because that is never my intention and, frankly, I don't really care. It's just a few words on a computer monitor.

3) I prefaced the rest of my comments by saying that you are totally free to contradict me. This was mostly intended so that you know to read my posts with a grain of salt. If what I said offended you, or you feel the need to escalate what I said to a much larger issue on female welfare, then that's your fault. People did contradict me, which is fine. Some people flat out called me a misogynist. If you're gonna' start championing the female rights movement all of a sudden, I advise you divert your attention towards the 200 girls kidnapped in Nigeria as opposed to some teenager's message board posts. There are much bigger issues out there.

I will continue speaking based on my own experience. My lady's favorite game is The Sims 3, by far. Other games she plays include Fallout 3, Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, Castlevania, and Devil May Cry. She says she hates the old Castlevania games because she dislikes the "pixel art" and the lack of an "interesting plot". She herself says that most girls love games with dynamic characters and intimate romance subplots. I don't think I'm offending anybody by saying the majority of girls are into that sort of thing. She also loves open world games because she enjoys romping around a large environment doing silly shit. All of my gamer female friends like using cheats, and it is my belief that women are a tad less patient about slowly unlocking the cooler features in a game, like the cars and weapons, than men are. If you're going to call me a misogynist because I said girls like using cheat codes more than men, then I honestly don't know what to say.
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Lukipela
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Re: Women on this board

Post by Lukipela » Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:40 pm

Nuclear wrote:Okay, so your knee jerk reaction is probably to start pointing fingers and calling me a woman hater.
No it's not. I do think you're doing some sloppy thinking and taking a few shortcuts through stereotypes, which reveals the issue of misogyny and misogynistic internalization excellently. Which is a good thing to point out in a thread like this one. But it doesn't equal hatred in any way. Some things are tricky to think about and no one (not even me :) ) gets it all right on the first go. Or the 54th I guess. For instance, I should have made my point clearer and less snippy, and that might have saved me most of this post.
1) The majority of my friends are, in fact, female gamers. The opinions I decided to share are based exclusively off of what I've seen in real life. Yes, I definitely made generalizations about female gamers, but rest assured I am not just pulling wild assumptions out of my ass. I simply base what I say off of what I practically observe in real life. It's not like I'll meet some retro gaming girl over TF2, and then use her as an excuse to speak for all female gamers. That's just not how I role.
You know how "I have black friends so I can't be racist" isn't valid? The above really follows the same line of reasoning. To continue along those lines, if you live in a seriously run down area and the majority of your black friends are unemployed, do you think that's because of the colour of their skin or issues with both neighbourhood, poverty and society? I seem to recall you being in your late teens, which means you probably have some age bias in your friend group as well as the fact that your sample of female gamers is limited due to the prevailing cultural winds when you were a kid and young teenager. I don't doubt that you know women who like certain types of games. I just wanted to point out that generalizing those observations in the way you did is a good example of what we were talking about in this thread.
2) If you think, on a serious and literal level, that I group all female gamers into one or two stereotypes, then you probably imagine me as some kind of Neanderthal that acquired computer access. I hate to break it to you, but the SCDB is not Sereuss Bizzness to me. This is a happy little club that I visit once in awhile, you are my conjecture buddies, we circle jerk over a 20 year old computer game, and we share some laughs and have some fun. I don't log in here with the intention of offending anyone, or soap boxing hate speech, or trying to sway the masses to my opinion or whatever. This is all just shits and giggles, and I feel comfortable enough with you people to speak casually. With that in mind, I don't go over everything I type making sure that nothing I say can be interpreted as offensive to a certain minority, because that is never my intention and, frankly, I don't really care. It's just a few words on a computer monitor.
I'm sorry if I've offended you by pointing out that you were describing female gamers as one coherent group in a thread where the issues of women on-line and in the larger world were being discussed. I think you are missing some shades of grey in your world view though, since it seems you think I either have to be super upset about this or not care at all. I don't consider you a neanderthal, misogynist, evil little imp, or whatever other strawman you'd like to defend yourself against. I think you're a good guy who is alot more fun to have on the board now than when you arrived, who made a weird jump to conclusions that I wanted to comment on. That's not the end of the world man. Don't take it so seriously.
3) I prefaced the rest of my comments by saying that you are totally free to contradict me. This was mostly intended so that you know to read my posts with a grain of salt. If what I said offended you, or you feel the need to escalate what I said to a much larger issue on female welfare, then that's your fault. People did contradict me, which is fine. Some people flat out called me a misogynist.
I interpreted "You're free to contradict me" as a literal "If you disagree, contradict me and tell me why so we can have a discussion on this discussion board". But the above point makes it sound like you meant "This is what I think and I don't care if you have a different opinion.". Unless you are offended that I used the word misogyny about your opinions? In that case I apologize, I should have been more precise. Misogyny is often a bit misunderstood, just like racism. You can have internalized misogynistic or racist opinions, even if you aren't a racist or misogynist per se. You are only a misogynist or a racist if, when confronted with the fact that some of your opinions may be based on attitudes such as these, you still choose to hold on to them rather than evaluate them.
If you're gonna' start championing the female rights movement all of a sudden, I advise you divert your attention towards the 200 girls kidnapped in Nigeria as opposed to some teenager's message board posts. There are much bigger issues out there.
Why can't I do both? How do you know I don't? This is a serious question, because this is a kind of fallacy that can be really dangerous. It both assumes that a person can't care about two things at once, and assumes that since the thing being discussed right now isn't the worst ever, it cannot be adressed because all things worse than that need to be fixed first. Gay marriage? Seriously, there are people being killed in Uganda for being gay! Fix that first!
I will continue speaking based on my own experience. My lady's favorite game is The Sims 3, by far. Other games she plays include Fallout 3, Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, Castlevania, and Devil May Cry. She says she hates the old Castlevania games because she dislikes the "pixel art" and the lack of an "interesting plot". She herself says that most girls love games with dynamic characters and intimate romance subplots. I don't think I'm offending anybody by saying the majority of girls are into that sort of thing. She also loves open world games because she enjoys romping around a large environment doing silly shit.
You might be offending some girls I guess, but your certainly not offending me. You are however doubling down on both the "I think most women are like this" part and "A girl said this about girls so it must be true for all girls". The former we've talked a bit about ,the latter is a trickier issue where you have to do a delicate dance around not trying to tell someone what they can/can't think but also not just assuming that any member of a group must necessarily have valid insights into how everyone, or even the majority of that group, thinks. Again, things which I think are interesting but also somewhat regrettable.
All of my gamer female friends like using cheats, and it is my belief that women are a tad less patient about slowly unlocking the cooler features in a game, like the cars and weapons, than men are. If you're going to call me a misogynist because I said girls like using cheat codes more than men, then I honestly don't know what to say.
It bears repeating that I think you have a certain amount of internalized misogyny that you've picked up from society around you (not having that would in fact, be quite weird as it'd make you a uniquely impervious young man). I think these attitudes as well as certain amount of innate privilege may be blinding you to the fact that you are in fact both stereotyping a group and displaying a lack of empathic ability towards people who are different from you and how your actions might affect them. Again, this is nothing weird, everyone does it to some degree.

If your belief follows the same logical train of thought as the below, though obviously much milder, you may want to reconsider the premise behind it and question whether it is an opinion that you can reappraise or if it is one you feel emotionally vested in. And if the latter, why?
All of my black friends like watermelon, and it is my belief that blacks are a tad less eager about slowly unlocking tougher but more rewarding fruit, like pineapples and oranges, than whites are. If you're going to call me a racist because I said blacks enjoy watermelon more than whites, then I honestly don't know what to say.
Again, there's no hate here, no need to feel insulted, sad angered or defensive. You're totally free to contradict me.

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Lukipela
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Re: Women on this board

Post by Lukipela » Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:59 pm

glory_device wrote: The problem that I saw wasn't the cause in itself, (for which I truly am a fervent supporter) but in this committee. The spokesperson were able to simply enrage man and women alike on the campus by their way of saying things and the action taken. Instead of creating an inclusive group, they tend to favor isolation and segregation: you either fully agree with what we say or your simply out. Furthermore, I felt like some of them were trying to make me feel bad about being a man...It's the way I felt anyway when I spoke to them. That group in general didn't fare well with other feminism group on the campus..However, they were the most vocal/provocative, so they were getting way more attention. Concrete results and improvements, however, came from other groups.
It's also a pretty interesting mainstream culture thing that a lot of people will be happy to give more extreme groups a lot more attention as a way of de-legitimizing the rest of a movement they might not fully agree with. Some feminists are man-haters, but it's amazing how many men are eager to discuss them and their extreme views and use them to tar any other group by association. see also; any other minority movement ever.
When it concerns politics, my country (Canada)(and most importantly, my province(Quebec)) is pretty odd when it comes to change. In general we are really socialist in nature...however, we have a onset of like 5-6 minority government in the past 15 years on both level of government with a swing chair kind of cycle between the two parties involved. Therefore, every significant change were dissolved to go in opposite direction to once again get shelved or destroyed and flip it once more. Therefore, population in general felt that...nothing was happening at all! And this happens to some civil rights issues, healthcare and education....Not funny at all to see budgets being blasted into reverting or flipping things up instead of improving

Furthermore, here, we are on a state where most of the major issues are tackled on an the general consensus is favorable. When major things happens, indeed you need to go in hard. But, once you get past that, the rest of the changes actually happens slowly and the idea spreads too. In a matter of speaking, it's like putting your foot on the door to stop it from closing. after that, you can crawl your way in at a different pace....but you need the foot first and that needs to happens quite fast and the foot strong enough to sustain the door closing on it.
Yeah, that kind of balance is pretty hard and I sympathise with this. I'm just saying, although this might be the most efficient way to affect change, it doesn't mean the minority groups need to like it. The world isn't fair, we just wish it was.

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Re: Women on this board

Post by Nuclear » Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:04 pm

Lol, glad to see you're still the mother hen of the board Luki. Honestly, I got nothing. All your points are good ones. I guess being a mod for a message board takes that kind of innocuous mindset that you've displayed. You've trained yourself to disprove of generalizations and there's nothing I can do to change that. You also enjoy psychoanalyzing people's posts, but I warn against doing that in my case since, as you acknowledged, I tend to be purposefully chaotic and sloppy about my choice of words. I enjoy typing like this. Some spots on the internet I tuck in my shirt and straighten my hair, but this is my "internet living room", and I feel comfortable whipping off my belt and scratching my ass here :P-smf

Don't worry about offending me. Even if you compared me to some kind of freakish misogynistic Hitler, I would probably just giggle. I'm just a bit defensive of the image people here have of me in their skulls. I wouldn't want to be known as the friendly neighborhood woman hater around these parts, so I made that post to clear up any misconceptions and to avoid a political shit storm from the white knights. I've been on this board for quite a while, so if everyone here started to despise my every post because of a few silly messages I made about women, I would definitely be a bit dejected.

I know you enjoy serious discussions, but the whole time I read your analogy about watermelons and video game cheats I was just thinking

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Re: Women on this board

Post by chenjesuwizard » Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:13 pm

In gender theory, there's thing thing called gender essentialism, which is the belief that men and women are fundamentally different. This is an incredibly problematic thing because it causes huge problems, such as the internalised misogyny that Luki alluded to, as there is a set view of how men and women are. The problem is that it is widespread among society and by making generalisations such as "men like this..." and "women like this..." you add to this. I know you didn't mean to, and we all do it, god knows I do, but it's a serious problem.

It's all well and good laughing it off, but you have to realise that when you are saying that you come from a position of privilege. You aren't affected by sexism in any of the same extent as a women is. Though you think, oh, it doesn't matter that much, there are women everyday who have to deal with the problem of internalised misogyny and gender essentialism, which propagated by small statements such as yours. Even though it might have seemed like nothing, just another of your chaotic posts, but to those in society who are put down by this it was.

This isn't to say I bare you ill will or grudges. It's just important to realise the true problematic nature of some of your statements. It's our job, no matter what, as members of society, to try and fix our internalised misogyny.

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Re: Women on this board

Post by glory_device » Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:01 am

some interesting point of view! Feel free to read it!: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... nerds.html
It's also a pretty interesting mainstream culture thing that a lot of people will be happy to give more extreme groups a lot more attention as a way of de-legitimizing the rest of a movement they might not fully agree with. Some feminists are man-haters, but it's amazing how many men are eager to discuss them and their extreme views and use them to tar any other group by association. see also; any other minority movement ever.
@Luki: the worst thing I saw about it is media coverage of the student strike in 2012 against a tuition hike here. Some extremist group decided to use the cause to fuel their own cause. When 200 000 students manifested in downtown Montreal...there were no violence of any kind. However, there was manifestation each night or almost for a month and at some point these guys came and decided to turn pacific manifestation into riot...Off course, media did an easy association and government literally JUMPED on this argument...Public support faltered and tension arose. In the end, we sorta did win...but it wasn't a step forward...it was simply a stall mate...two years later, they did increase the tuition and this time...nobody moved a muscle about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Quebe ... t_protests

Oh yeah I forgot, on of the student elective who spoke for us with the government (who was a bit of an extremist) decided to flip a table over two ministers head. His student association ( 1 out of 3) was kicked out promptly of the negotiation table.
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Lukipela
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Re: Women on this board

Post by Lukipela » Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:54 pm

Nuclear wrote:Lol, glad to see you're still the mother hen of the board Luki. Honestly, I got nothing. All your points are good ones. I guess being a mod for a message board takes that kind of innocuous mindset that you've displayed. You've trained yourself to disprove of generalizations and there's nothing I can do to change that. You also enjoy psychoanalyzing people's posts, but I warn against doing that in my case since, as you acknowledged, I tend to be purposefully chaotic and sloppy about my choice of words. I enjoy typing like this. Some spots on the internet I tuck in my shirt and straighten my hair, but this is my "internet living room", and I feel comfortable whipping off my belt and scratching my ass here :P-smf
A few things I feel might be worth mentioning. First off, no one is psychoanalysing you. As a stranger on the internet you are not really worth that kind of effort to me. And even if you were, I'm an engineer. That kind of stuff is way beyond my capabilities. It'd also require a lot more knowledge about you than just your posts here. What I'm doing is just looking at the big glaring lights in your posts and pointing them out. Honestly, it's more on the level of "Monkey pick nose, Luki point out nose is for smelling"

Also, a good example of unconscious sexism. I'm a man. If anything, I'd be a fathering rooster. Fathers can be every bit as caring, nursing as and overprotective as mothers, and as the father of a 10 month old it does actually annoy me when people think that only the mother can have a "special bond" with the child. Another everyday-sexism worth considering. Especially since "Mothering hen" is often considered a poor attribute and used as an insult/demeaning phrase. Why do you think that is?

As for the "I enjoy being sloppy and lazy", it is in my opinion a poor attitude steeped in a fair bit of privilege. To continue with the same tired comparison, imagine walking into your favourite bar and talking about blacks and watermelon. When called on it, would just reply;
I tend to be purposefully dumb and insensitive about my choice of words. I enjoy making racist comparisons like this. Some spots of the world (like AFRICA LOL!) I tuck in my shirt and straighten my hair so that my bigotry is less noticeable, but this is my "bar", and I feel comfortable sharing my racist opinions here :P-smf
I mean no one is challenging your right to relax and lean back here. Not everything needs to be scientifically proven or rigorous. But if your reaction to being told "Hey, maybe stereotyping people/women/blacks is kinda dumb" is going to be "Well that's just what I do when I relax", then you're pretty much crossing over from unreflective sexism or internalized misogyny to defending your right to be sexist when you feel like it. And I totally get that. I mean, I often tell those uppity gays that if they can't take a few jokes about being butt-munchers and freaks just because they've been treated poorly in their lives, maybe that's their problem and they shouldn't bother me when I'm relaxing in my favourite bar and yelling out gay jokes for everyone to laugh at. Or whatever.
Don't worry about offending me. Even if you compared me to some kind of freakish misogynistic Hitler, I would probably just giggle. I'm just a bit defensive of the image people here have of me in their skulls. I wouldn't want to be known as the friendly neighborhood woman hater around these parts, so I made that post to clear up any misconceptions and to avoid a political shit storm from the white knights. I've been on this board for quite a while, so if everyone here started to despise my every post because of a few silly messages I made about women, I would definitely be a bit dejected.
Again, this reads a bit fractured. You don't care what people call you, but you do care what they think about you. That's kinda connected. But you don't care enough to not do the stuff that might get you thought about badly. Though you feel the need to be flippant about it. Sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too.

Me, I'm proud to be considered the most long nosed busy-bottom on this site. Pick your personality flaws and cherish them. ;) Just be aware that stigma comes with the territory, for instance I can hardly go a month without some whippersnapper accusing me of being a mothering psychoanalyzer who takes things too seriously.

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Re: Women on this board

Post by Shiver » Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:51 pm

Lukipela wrote:Me, I'm proud to be considered the most long nosed busy-bottom on this site.
That's busybody, not busy-bottom.

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Re: Women on this board

Post by Lukipela » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:20 pm

Whoops, sorry about that. Sometimes I try to be better at English than I actually am. :(-smf

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