Nuclear wrote:Okay, so your knee jerk reaction is probably to start pointing fingers and calling me a woman hater.
No it's not. I do think you're doing some sloppy thinking and taking a few shortcuts through stereotypes, which reveals the issue of misogyny and misogynistic internalization excellently. Which is a good thing to point out in a thread like this one. But it doesn't equal hatred in any way. Some things are tricky to think about and no one (not even me
) gets it all right on the first go. Or the 54th I guess. For instance, I should have made my point clearer and less snippy, and that might have saved me most of this post.
1) The majority of my friends are, in fact, female gamers. The opinions I decided to share are based exclusively off of what I've seen in real life. Yes, I definitely made generalizations about female gamers, but rest assured I am not just pulling wild assumptions out of my ass. I simply base what I say off of what I practically observe in real life. It's not like I'll meet some retro gaming girl over TF2, and then use her as an excuse to speak for all female gamers. That's just not how I role.
You know how "I have black friends so I can't be racist" isn't valid? The above really follows the same line of reasoning. To continue along those lines, if you live in a seriously run down area and the majority of your black friends are unemployed, do you think that's because of the colour of their skin or issues with both neighbourhood, poverty and society? I seem to recall you being in your late teens, which means you probably have some age bias in your friend group as well as the fact that your sample of female gamers is limited due to the prevailing cultural winds when you were a kid and young teenager. I don't doubt that you know women who like certain types of games. I just wanted to point out that generalizing those observations in the way you did is a good example of what we were talking about in this thread.
2) If you think, on a serious and literal level, that I group all female gamers into one or two stereotypes, then you probably imagine me as some kind of Neanderthal that acquired computer access. I hate to break it to you, but the SCDB is not Sereuss Bizzness to me. This is a happy little club that I visit once in awhile, you are my conjecture buddies, we circle jerk over a 20 year old computer game, and we share some laughs and have some fun. I don't log in here with the intention of offending anyone, or soap boxing hate speech, or trying to sway the masses to my opinion or whatever. This is all just shits and giggles, and I feel comfortable enough with you people to speak casually. With that in mind, I don't go over everything I type making sure that nothing I say can be interpreted as offensive to a certain minority, because that is never my intention and, frankly, I don't really care. It's just a few words on a computer monitor.
I'm sorry if I've offended you by pointing out that you were describing female gamers as one coherent group in a thread where the issues of women on-line and in the larger world were being discussed. I think you are missing some shades of grey in your world view though, since it seems you think I either have to be super upset about this or not care at all. I don't consider you a neanderthal, misogynist, evil little imp, or whatever other strawman you'd like to defend yourself against. I think you're a good guy who is alot more fun to have on the board now than when you arrived, who made a weird jump to conclusions that I wanted to comment on. That's not the end of the world man. Don't take it so seriously.
3) I prefaced the rest of my comments by saying that you are totally free to contradict me. This was mostly intended so that you know to read my posts with a grain of salt. If what I said offended you, or you feel the need to escalate what I said to a much larger issue on female welfare, then that's your fault. People did contradict me, which is fine. Some people flat out called me a misogynist.
I interpreted "You're free to contradict me" as a literal "If you disagree, contradict me and tell me why so we can have a discussion on this discussion board". But the above point makes it sound like you meant "This is what I think and I don't care if you have a different opinion.". Unless you are offended that I used the word misogyny about your opinions? In that case I apologize, I should have been more precise. Misogyny is often a bit misunderstood, just like racism. You can have internalized misogynistic or racist opinions, even if you aren't a racist or misogynist per se. You are only a misogynist or a racist if, when confronted with the fact that some of your opinions may be based on attitudes such as these, you still choose to hold on to them rather than evaluate them.
If you're gonna' start championing the female rights movement all of a sudden, I advise you divert your attention towards the 200 girls kidnapped in Nigeria as opposed to some teenager's message board posts. There are much bigger issues out there.
Why can't I do both? How do you know I don't? This is a serious question, because this is a kind of fallacy that can be really dangerous. It both assumes that a person can't care about two things at once, and assumes that since the thing being discussed right now isn't the worst ever, it cannot be adressed because all things worse than that need to be fixed first. Gay marriage? Seriously, there are people being killed in Uganda for being gay! Fix that first!
I will continue speaking based on my own experience. My lady's favorite game is The Sims 3, by far. Other games she plays include Fallout 3, Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, Castlevania, and Devil May Cry. She says she hates the old Castlevania games because she dislikes the "pixel art" and the lack of an "interesting plot". She herself says that most girls love games with dynamic characters and intimate romance subplots. I don't think I'm offending anybody by saying the majority of girls are into that sort of thing. She also loves open world games because she enjoys romping around a large environment doing silly shit.
You might be offending some girls I guess, but your certainly not offending me. You are however doubling down on both the "I think most women are like this" part and "A girl said this about girls so it must be true for all girls". The former we've talked a bit about ,the latter is a trickier issue where you have to do a delicate dance around not trying to tell someone what they can/can't think but also not just assuming that any member of a group must necessarily have valid insights into how everyone, or even the majority of that group, thinks. Again, things which I think are interesting but also somewhat regrettable.
All of my gamer female friends like using cheats, and it is my belief that women are a tad less patient about slowly unlocking the cooler features in a game, like the cars and weapons, than men are. If you're going to call me a misogynist because I said girls like using cheat codes more than men, then I honestly don't know what to say.
It bears repeating that I think you have a certain amount of internalized misogyny that you've picked up from society around you (not having that would in fact, be quite weird as it'd make you a uniquely impervious young man). I think these attitudes as well as certain amount of innate privilege may be blinding you to the fact that you are in fact both stereotyping a group and displaying a lack of empathic ability towards people who are different from you and how your actions might affect them. Again, this is nothing weird, everyone does it to some degree.
If your belief follows the same logical train of thought as the below, though obviously much milder, you may want to reconsider the premise behind it and question whether it is an opinion that you can reappraise or if it is one you feel emotionally vested in. And if the latter, why?
All of my black friends like watermelon, and it is my belief that blacks are a tad less eager about slowly unlocking tougher but more rewarding fruit, like pineapples and oranges, than whites are. If you're going to call me a racist because I said blacks enjoy watermelon more than whites, then I honestly don't know what to say.
Again, there's no hate here, no need to feel insulted, sad angered or defensive. You're totally free to contradict me.