Women on this board

Anything that isn't Star Control. Mind your manners!

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Maloo Oture
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Re: Women on this board

Post by Maloo Oture » Tue May 27, 2014 8:57 pm

[/quote]
Asking for it is enough to have people like Saria being harassed by others just for being of that gender. That's why the people I know who game who are female just pretend that they are men or not reveal such info at all :). If she wants such information disclosed, the can post it here herself right ? :)[/quote]

He asked IF there are women, not WHO they are. I understand your sentiment. But let's have the conversation this post was meant to encourage rather than any more diversion.

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Re: Women on this board

Post by glory_device » Wed May 28, 2014 10:04 am

chenjesuwizard wrote: That's interesting, what did your friend do to further this goal? It has to be hard when there is such a societal expectation for women not to go into such jobs. I know a friend of mine, who is a mechanic, was asked when she had her first day on a job: "Who ordered a whore?"

I think there certainly is a disparity, even to this day, though I agree with you that their have been some improvements. However, there is certainly still a misogynistic culture around games, with many game designers making very male-centric games and many players making very misogynistic comments towards women in games, or calling girls who game "fake gamers", just because they don't believe a female could like such games.
Well, my professional order and university here offered several scholarship, prize and contests for women. There is also a national congress organized by the Canadian federation of engineering student (CFES) aimed at that: NCWIE (National congress for women in engineering). Some of my friend were helped from these programs.

It is true of engineering but also true for different science program...however i know less about it.

I also served a lot of time in my faculty student society and the campus wide student society. While each faculty student's society did something for the feminism cause...each of them acted differently depending on their field of expertise...I won't go into much detail here because it is frankly not that important. The only thing I might say is this tho: at some point, there was a faculty which used their feminist group to fire everywhere at every small dot instead of simply focusing on broader issues to the point where people were tired of working with them. Furthermore, the group members were odd at being feminist for the simple reason that when you talked to them, you didn't feel compelled to help their cause...instead leaving with a feeling of being persecuted by misandry and that you participated in a one sided discussion where they didn't want to slowly create an equilibrium. They really wanted to shift the balance. But, in general it was their student society's way of doing thing being quite radical sometimes. So, I am unsure if it was the group who was natively like that or if it was infused to them by their student society. It was really a shame tho...great idea, but with that kind of attitude you just don't want to get involved with them :/

A piece of advice that I learned over the years: if you want any type of change to last (be it social, workplace, way of doing things or any other stuff), they need to be done step by step slowly instead of an all out revolution. Fast change usually lead to a ringing where you will oscillate between two extreme instead of going where you really want.

For gaming in general, I mostly agree with what you say, but I feel that there are niche games where this is true and other which it is less of a problem. Age play a huge factor in this too, I think.
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Re: Women on this board

Post by Lukipela » Wed May 28, 2014 6:11 pm

Some of this has already been mentioned, but I guess it's worth my time to rehash it. If it's worth your time to read look at the two first points, or skip ahead.

Like was already said, there have been women around, prominent ones like Zarla, Saria, M_M and Kohr Ah Primat come to mind immediately, but I'm pretty sure there were a few more that just posted a few times and faded, just like many other posters. I seem to recall a wife&husband pair posting at some point as well? amiga monkey and his wife maybe? Right now the community is on a hiatus again, so it's no surprise there isn't much happening.

And like Angelfish said, a lot of posters may well be female but choose not to disclose it. Women still get a lot of unwanted attention online and it can often be easier to just avoid it. It's shitty that it can be that way and something we all should work to fix, but that's the way it is right now.

Also, there are some divisions that happen by gender. Back when the livejournal community frungylovers was really active, I'd say a good three-quarters, if not more, of their members were female. Sometimes established forums turn people off. I can especially see that happening in a place where women might want to post as women but don't want the hassle that can come with posting as a woman on a forum full of (presumably) men. In that case it can be a lot easier and nicer to use a place founded by a woman, run by women and with a more welcoming atmosphere, like that place was.

Regarding women in certain sectors, such as STEM fields, even in socialist-feminist (which I consider a good thing) Scandinavia it's pretty clear that cultural change takes a lot of hard work and requires that you upset a lot of privileged people, which makes it even harder. Well worth doing, but not something easily fixed by a few grants here and a ad campaign there. isolated male communities can (not saying they have to but they can) become quite toxic and hostile to women entering them, just helping people get in isn't enough.

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Re: Women on this board

Post by chenjesuwizard » Fri May 30, 2014 2:44 pm

I can definitely see your point, glory_device, about misandry in feminism and how this can occur due to a radical shift in society, we can see examples of large social shifts being too revolutionary in things like the Russian revolution in the early 20th Century, where Russia was very quickly pushed to the opposite side of the spectrum, and there is a worry about this occurring (obviously not to the same extent) among some feminist groups. However, it is fair to say that, at least in the UK, there is still a great gender divide which is seriously played down by the mainstream media and sometimes such sexism does need to be addressed by radical action, even at the expense of leaving some privileged people feeling uncomfortable. I think it's about finding that balance and picking your battles.

And to your point Luki, as I stated before, I am sorry if my lack of recognition of the women on this board offended anyone, it came purely from my ignorance. However, I do think that, as you alluded to, there is a general problem (maybe not so much so in this community, who generally appear to be more accepting, but in the wider community) that women are often looked down upon for their gender, and I do strongly believe in the importance of women being able to feel safe to express their gender, if they wish to, without repercussions of any kind and be able to actively contribute. This, as you said, also extends to the workplace, and I am in full agreement with your statement about ensuring women don't just have to get in, but are able to feel safe once in the area of work or society. This is a serious problem and I know of cases where women who have been sexually harassed at work, for example, just to be told to "suck it up, that's how you do well in a career as a woman".

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Re: Women on this board

Post by Nuclear » Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:07 am

Lukipela wrote:Women still get a lot of unwanted attention online and it can often be easier to just avoid it. It's shitty that it can be that way and something we all should work to fix, but that's the way it is right now.
I know right. Every echelon and nook and cranny of the internet is unsafe from perverts and white knight losers. In fact, it's typically the latter that need to be watched out for.

This is just my opinion based on my own experience, so feel free to contradict me, but I believe most women prefer to play novelty games or ones that are instantly gratifying. Most women stray away from potentially monotonous games such as Star Control that are more rewarding on a slow, nostalgic level than they are on a "New high score" or "Big colorful victory". I told my female gamer friend Star Control and showed her some gameplay videos. She promptly decided that it looked "dumb". The oldest game she's willing to play is like, the Ocarina of Time. She normally plays games such as Call of Duty, Grand Theft Auto, and Ratchet and Clank. A tad bit pedestrian but fun none of the less. My girlfriend isn't much of a gamer herself, but she does enjoy playing open world games when she comes over, like Vice City. She hasn't grown up with old games like I did, so she has a hard time appreciating games like Unreal Tournament or Wolfenstein 3D. She has shown an interest in System Shock though, but would be unwilling to play it herself due to the arcane controls. It's a shame really. Men are generally more appreciative and patient with their silly old retro video games :P-smf
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Maloo Oture
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Re: Women on this board

Post by Maloo Oture » Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:52 am

Nuclear wrote:
Lukipela wrote:Women still get a lot of unwanted attention online and it can often be easier to just avoid it. It's shitty that it can be that way and something we all should work to fix, but that's the way it is right now.
I know right. Every echelon and nook and cranny of the internet is unsafe from perverts and white knight losers. In fact, it's typically the latter that need to be watched out for.

This is just my opinion based on my own experience, so feel free to contradict me, but I believe most women prefer to play novelty games or ones that are instantly gratifying. Most women stray away from potentially monotonous games such as Star Control that are more rewarding on a slow, nostalgic level than they are on a "New high score" or "Big colorful victory". I told my female gamer friend Star Control and showed her some gameplay videos. She promptly decided that it looked "dumb". The oldest game she's willing to play is like, the Ocarina of Time. She normally plays games such as Call of Duty, Grand Theft Auto, and Ratchet and Clank. A tad bit pedestrian but fun none of the less. My girlfriend isn't much of a gamer herself, but she does enjoy playing open world games when she comes over, like Vice City. She hasn't grown up with old games like I did, so she has a hard time appreciating games like Unreal Tournament or Wolfenstein 3D. She has shown an interest in System Shock though, but would be unwilling to play it herself due to the arcane controls. It's a shame really. Men are generally more appreciative and patient with their silly old retro video games :P-smf
At the risk of sounding ignorant:
I imagined girls would be all over a story driven game.

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Re: Women on this board

Post by Nuclear » Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:49 am

Yes, they certainly are. But they are more attracted to profound girly-man anti-heroes, deep romantic sub plots, and fantastic, sparkly worlds than they are to dated graphics and campy voice acting :P-smf

I myself am very loving when it comes to cartoony artwork. I've always loved colorful settings like Star Control or Buzz Lightyear of Star Command or any similar style. The new MMO Wildstar, which I tried the beta of, looks fantastic for one thing. Reminds me a lot of Ratchet and Clank actually, or some kind of Saturday morning cartoon. An example of an artstyle I dislike would be Mass Effect. I fucking despise ME's artwork, I really do.
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Re: Women on this board

Post by chenjesuwizard » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:36 am

Nuclear wrote:Yes, they certainly are. But they are more attracted to profound girly-man anti-heroes, deep romantic sub plots, and fantastic, sparkly worlds than they are to dated graphics and campy voice acting :P-smf
This is a gross generalisation. Some women, as shown by the board's members, do enjoy the game, while others don't. The idea that they only like "girly man anti-heroes, deep romantic sub plots and fantastic sparkly worlds" is a little problematic. There are many women who play incredibly narrative games with no romantic sub plots or girly man anti-heroes and the suggestion that they care about graphics, to any extent more than a man (as there are many men who put graphics above all else), is wrong. There is no thing that women prefer, as they are not one collective unit, but individuals, with varying tastes.

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Eth
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Re: Women on this board

Post by Eth » Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:58 pm

To be fair, most people in general avoid games like Star Control these days. I don't know what gender has to do with it.

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Re: Women on this board

Post by Lukipela » Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:38 pm

chenjesuwizard wrote:I can definitely see your point, glory_device, about misandry in feminism and how this can occur due to a radical shift in society, we can see examples of large social shifts being too revolutionary in things like the Russian revolution in the early 20th Century, where Russia was very quickly pushed to the opposite side of the spectrum, and there is a worry about this occurring (obviously not to the same extent) among some feminist groups. However, it is fair to say that, at least in the UK, there is still a great gender divide which is seriously played down by the mainstream media and sometimes such sexism does need to be addressed by radical action, even at the expense of leaving some privileged people feeling uncomfortable. I think it's about finding that balance and picking your battles.
To be onest, most "misandry" is either a strawman or an insignificant problem compared to the misogny out there.

And a fair counterpoint to "change must come in tiny steps" is that it is much the same as saying "sorry you're being treated shittily, we'll start treating you better now, but really slowly since some people that are currently treating you shittily feel uncomfortable about treating you better and we care more about hteir feelings than your problems.

Look at the march of gay marriage through the states right now. Would it have been better if we had done it more slowly to oblige homophobes?
And to your point Luki, as I stated before, I am sorry if my lack of recognition of the women on this board offended anyone, it came purely from my ignorance. However, I do think that, as you alluded to, there is a general problem (maybe not so much so in this community, who generally appear to be more accepting, but in the wider community) that women are often looked down upon for their gender, and I do strongly believe in the importance of women being able to feel safe to express their gender, if they wish to, without repercussions of any kind and be able to actively contribute. This, as you said, also extends to the workplace, and I am in full agreement with your statement about ensuring women don't just have to get in, but are able to feel safe once in the area of work or society. This is a serious problem and I know of cases where women who have been sexually harassed at work, for example, just to be told to "suck it up, that's how you do well in a career as a woman".
I'm not offedned and I doubt anyone is.
Nuclear wrote:I know right. Every echelon and nook and cranny of the internet is unsafe from perverts and white knight losers. In fact, it's typically the latter that need to be watched out for.
Misogyny comes in al ot os shades, such as
"This is just my opinion based on my own experience, so feel free to contradict me, but I believe most women prefer to play novelty games or ones that are instantly gratifying. Most women stray away from potentially monotonous games such as Star Control that are more rewarding on a slow, nostalgic level than they are on a "New high score" or "Big colorful victory"."
Women are like this and men are like that! They aren't actually people, just easily extrapolated groups. Only the group men has subdivisions like "Xbox fanboy", "RTS freak", 4X fanatic", "Classic Gamer" and whatnot, but the group women has just the one, "Likes novelty games" and "does not game". This kind of thinking is an easy way to accidentally dehumanize a group you're not part of.
Men are generally more appreciative and patient with their silly old retro video games :P-smf
Your sample size may be a bit biased, and the starting size of your sample groups might be a tad more influenced by societal culture than by biological differences.
Nuclear wrote:Yes, they certainly are. But they are more attracted to profound girly-man anti-heroes, deep romantic sub plots, and fantastic, sparkly worlds than they are to dated graphics and campy voice acting :P-smf
So only women like anime? Or everyone who likes anime is a woman? And as was previoulssy mentioned, there aren't places around where girls obsess over Star Control at all?

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